7 ms·

There are a lot of ways to generate lots of power, what we're generally lacking is ways to _store_ power to handle things like peaks.

ogre_codes 5y ago
We know a lot of ways to store power. The trick is storing it efficiently. If we have enough surplus power (which may be the case in a few years), efficiency becomes less important.
- Panino 5y ago
  Just as an alternative to prioritizing storage (we should still do it, but it's not the only constructive use), we could use a lot of excess electricity to create hydrogen, desalinate sea water and pump it inland, create biochar without kickstarting the heating process via combustion, etc. The hydrogen could be used for hydrogen vehicles and other purposes. Seawater desalination (very partially) addresses sealevel rise while also getting water to dry areas. Biochar sequesters carbon while helping more plants to grow with less water and less chemical fertilizer. So from a certain point of view, the above pursuits are like investing most of your "excess money" in the stock market rather than putting most of it in a savings account. And since we're starting to address climate change so late we need something better than just a savings account or battery.
  - mgarfias 5y ago
    Imagine a san Joaquin valley that feeds everyone/doesn’t lie fallow, and yet the rivers run free, and the delta smelt can live. Oh and California’s native salmon runs come back.
- makomk 5y ago
  The difficult part is storing it on the kind of massive scale required full stop. Sacrificing efficiency can only do so much to help solve this, especially since the wasted energy has to go somewhere and dealing with that has its own costs...
  - ogre_codes 5y ago
    A lot of these problems solve themselves with proper pricing. For example if power is nearly free during daylight hours and expensive in the evening, businesses will shift some percentage of energy intensive operations to daylight hours. EV charging stations will charge more during evening hours. Charging EVs during daylight hours while they are parked at work places instead of overnight at employees homes is another way we can shift use. Some of these things might be done via pricing, others perhaps government incentives.
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
Storing power doesn't seem like an intractable problem. With the huge incentives with the coming electric car market, technology, renewables storage and god knows what else, I imagine there will be a lot of investment pouring into solving this. It's only a matter of time.
aqme28 5y ago
Well if you generate enough excess power, you hardly need to store any.
- richwater 5y ago
  This makes no sense. Without storage excess power is useless at best, dangerous at worst.
- qayxc 5y ago
  Now you shifted the problem to power transmission, because there's no way to generate an excess of power at all times in all locations using just wind and solar. So while in my region at the time of posting this, 100% of electricity is generated by wind, there'd be 100% less if there was no wind (which happens from time to time). Solar wouldn't help either, because right now it's dark outside and it will stay dark for another 6 hours. So right now, even if there's an abundance of power generated elsewhere, it would have to get transmitted efficiently to here (and from here to where it's needed if applicable). Local storage and massive interconnected power transmission capacity is what's required. And that ain't cheap.
  - aqme28 5y ago
    My point is that if you have enough of something, it stops mattering as much how efficient you are with it.
    - Junk_Collector 5y ago
      Unfortunately no. Whatever power you generate you have to send somewhere. Excess generation will push the grid frequency high and destabilize the grid in much the same way that insufficient generation will pull the frequency down and destabilize the grid. Storage doesn't just provide power during low generation, it provides somewhere for power to go when generation outpaces demand.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
angelbar 5y ago
- One is to move back the excess to the grid and then to pump water over dams. - Compress air into sealed caverns - Elevating mass - Store hot water locally - Crypto currencies maybe?

ogre_codes 5y ago

We know a lot of ways to store power. The trick is storing it efficiently. If we have enough surplus power (which may be the case in a few years), efficiency becomes less important.

Panino 5y ago
Just as an alternative to prioritizing storage (we should still do it, but it's not the only constructive use), we could use a lot of excess electricity to create hydrogen, desalinate sea water and pump it inland, create biochar without kickstarting the heating process via combustion, etc. The hydrogen could be used for hydrogen vehicles and other purposes. Seawater desalination (very partially) addresses sealevel rise while also getting water to dry areas. Biochar sequesters carbon while helping more plants to grow with less water and less chemical fertilizer. So from a certain point of view, the above pursuits are like investing most of your "excess money" in the stock market rather than putting most of it in a savings account. And since we're starting to address climate change so late we need something better than just a savings account or battery.
- mgarfias 5y ago
  Imagine a san Joaquin valley that feeds everyone/doesn’t lie fallow, and yet the rivers run free, and the delta smelt can live. Oh and California’s native salmon runs come back.
makomk 5y ago
The difficult part is storing it on the kind of massive scale required full stop. Sacrificing efficiency can only do so much to help solve this, especially since the wasted energy has to go somewhere and dealing with that has its own costs...
- ogre_codes 5y ago
  A lot of these problems solve themselves with proper pricing. For example if power is nearly free during daylight hours and expensive in the evening, businesses will shift some percentage of energy intensive operations to daylight hours. EV charging stations will charge more during evening hours. Charging EVs during daylight hours while they are parked at work places instead of overnight at employees homes is another way we can shift use. Some of these things might be done via pricing, others perhaps government incentives.

dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago

Storing power doesn't seem like an intractable problem. With the huge incentives with the coming electric car market, technology, renewables storage and god knows what else, I imagine there will be a lot of investment pouring into solving this. It's only a matter of time.

aqme28 5y ago

Well if you generate enough excess power, you hardly need to store any.

richwater 5y ago
This makes no sense. Without storage excess power is useless at best, dangerous at worst.
qayxc 5y ago
Now you shifted the problem to power transmission, because there's no way to generate an excess of power at all times in all locations using just wind and solar. So while in my region at the time of posting this, 100% of electricity is generated by wind, there'd be 100% less if there was no wind (which happens from time to time). Solar wouldn't help either, because right now it's dark outside and it will stay dark for another 6 hours. So right now, even if there's an abundance of power generated elsewhere, it would have to get transmitted efficiently to here (and from here to where it's needed if applicable). Local storage and massive interconnected power transmission capacity is what's required. And that ain't cheap.
- aqme28 5y ago
  My point is that if you have enough of something, it stops mattering as much how efficient you are with it.
  - Junk_Collector 5y ago
    Unfortunately no. Whatever power you generate you have to send somewhere. Excess generation will push the grid frequency high and destabilize the grid in much the same way that insufficient generation will pull the frequency down and destabilize the grid. Storage doesn't just provide power during low generation, it provides somewhere for power to go when generation outpaces demand.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

angelbar 5y ago

- One is to move back the excess to the grid and then to pump water over dams. - Compress air into sealed caverns - Elevating mass - Store hot water locally - Crypto currencies maybe?