4 ms·

Zoning is the big problem in the US. It is illegal in most cities to build a tiny house, or a decent shelter to sleep in, even if you follow all the safety code

Zoning is the big problem in the US. It is illegal in most cities to build a tiny house, or a decent shelter to sleep in, even if you follow all the safety codes. Zoning says you must have a minimum of 1000+ square feet (100+ square meters), a kitchen, a bathroom, a minimum lot size, minimum setbacks, minimum parking in some areas, etc. A sheriff with a gun will show up eventually to evict you. You either can afford city rent, or you are kind of screwed. It's a shame that most places won't even allow these people anywhere to pitch a tent, somewhere with bathrooms and access to a bus stop.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Zoning says you must have a minimum of 1000+ square feet Minimum lot and habitable space rules vary by state and locality, not only is 1,000 sq. ft. usually above the minimum for habitable space, its often above the minimim for lot size by a wide margin.
- mikem170 6y ago
  Is that common or an exception, particularly in cities where the jobs are? And does that change the point I was making, that zoning is a bigger impediment to more/cheaper housing than codes? It isn't safety codes that says I can't put six locked insulated sheds in my back yard for six homeless people to sleep in and a port potty, it's zoning, right?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > And does that change the point I was making, that zoning is a bigger impediment to more/cheaper housing than codes? Zoning is codes, and safety is one of the overt purposes of such codes. And, conversely, state building/safety/hability codes can have zoning-like exclusionary purposes as well as their overt purposes. You can’t really cleanly divide them as unrelated orthogonal rules. > It isn't safety codes that says I can't put six locked insulated sheds in my back yard for six homeless people to sleep in and a port potty, it's zoning, right? No, in most cases using sheds and not having in-unit bathrooms would violate safety/hability codes at the state level, not just local zoning ordinances. Now, building an otherwise legal multiunit apartment complex on your single-family-zoned lot would also be a zoning violation, true.
    - mikem170 6y ago
      I appreciate the clarification on codes versus zoning. However I did some digging and found that there's a big difference between what the commonly used international residential codes allow, and what zoning commonly allows. From an article on tiny houses [0]: > Most of the country’s local building codes have been adopted from the International Residential Code (IRC) for one- and two-family dwellings, which contains size specifications like rooms (except bathrooms and kitchens) must be at least 70 square feet, while ceiling height must be at least 7 feet. > Zoning regulations are based off more local factors, and determine the size requirements of your home based on what zone it’s located in. You will need to call your local zoning or planning department to find that info. Many cities and counties, however, have a minimum size requirement of 1,000 square feet or more for construction of a new home on its own land, according to Tiny House Community. And from a separate linked article on minimum dwelling size to satisfy codes [1]: > I find no requirement that the sleeping area or kitchen must be in separate rooms, and instead could be combined in a studio arrangement. So I believe it could be legitimately argued that a minimum legal area by 2015 IRC standards could be as small as one habitable room of 70 sq. ft. with sleeping area and kitchen, plus a bathroom as small as 18 sq. ft. while meeting minimum spacing requirements. So it does kind of look like zoning is still the big cost multiplier, since codes say 88 square feet minimum (separate bathroom), while zoning in most cities/counties in the US mandate 1000 square feet minimum. Quite a difference. And that's before getting into minimum lot size. [0] https://archive.curbed.com/2016/9/22/13002832/tiny-house-zoning-laws-regulations https://archive.curbed.com/2016/9/22/13002832/tiny-house-zon... [1] https://americantinyhouseassociation.org/minimum-size-for-a-tiny-house-to-meet-irc-2015/ https://americantinyhouseassociation.org/minimum-size-for-a-...
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        Your article seems to misrepresent the minimum room size in the IRC for the minimum total house area: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/minimum-house-size-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/minimum-hou... “The IRC codes require that all homes must be built on a minimum of 320 square feet. The minimum square footage for a house is 120 square feet, and at least one room must be habitable. Habitable rooms meet other regulations, such as needing a closet and at least one window. Other rooms, not meant for sleeping, must be at least 70 square feet.” It also weasel words (and apparently succeeds in tricking you with it) about what zoning requires; what you interpret as “most” is actually described inbthe article you cite with the far weaker “many”: > Many cities and counties, however, have a minimum size requirement of 1,000 square feet or more for construction of a new home on its own land Not “most”.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Zoning says you must have a minimum of 1000+ square feet Minimum lot and habitable space rules vary by state and locality, not only is 1,000 sq. ft. usually above the minimum for habitable space, its often above the minimim for lot size by a wide margin.

mikem170 6y ago
Is that common or an exception, particularly in cities where the jobs are? And does that change the point I was making, that zoning is a bigger impediment to more/cheaper housing than codes? It isn't safety codes that says I can't put six locked insulated sheds in my back yard for six homeless people to sleep in and a port potty, it's zoning, right?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > And does that change the point I was making, that zoning is a bigger impediment to more/cheaper housing than codes? Zoning is codes, and safety is one of the overt purposes of such codes. And, conversely, state building/safety/hability codes can have zoning-like exclusionary purposes as well as their overt purposes. You can’t really cleanly divide them as unrelated orthogonal rules. > It isn't safety codes that says I can't put six locked insulated sheds in my back yard for six homeless people to sleep in and a port potty, it's zoning, right? No, in most cases using sheds and not having in-unit bathrooms would violate safety/hability codes at the state level, not just local zoning ordinances. Now, building an otherwise legal multiunit apartment complex on your single-family-zoned lot would also be a zoning violation, true.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    I appreciate the clarification on codes versus zoning. However I did some digging and found that there's a big difference between what the commonly used international residential codes allow, and what zoning commonly allows. From an article on tiny houses [0]: > Most of the country’s local building codes have been adopted from the International Residential Code (IRC) for one- and two-family dwellings, which contains size specifications like rooms (except bathrooms and kitchens) must be at least 70 square feet, while ceiling height must be at least 7 feet. > Zoning regulations are based off more local factors, and determine the size requirements of your home based on what zone it’s located in. You will need to call your local zoning or planning department to find that info. Many cities and counties, however, have a minimum size requirement of 1,000 square feet or more for construction of a new home on its own land, according to Tiny House Community. And from a separate linked article on minimum dwelling size to satisfy codes [1]: > I find no requirement that the sleeping area or kitchen must be in separate rooms, and instead could be combined in a studio arrangement. So I believe it could be legitimately argued that a minimum legal area by 2015 IRC standards could be as small as one habitable room of 70 sq. ft. with sleeping area and kitchen, plus a bathroom as small as 18 sq. ft. while meeting minimum spacing requirements. So it does kind of look like zoning is still the big cost multiplier, since codes say 88 square feet minimum (separate bathroom), while zoning in most cities/counties in the US mandate 1000 square feet minimum. Quite a difference. And that's before getting into minimum lot size. [0] https://archive.curbed.com/2016/9/22/13002832/tiny-house-zoning-laws-regulations https://archive.curbed.com/2016/9/22/13002832/tiny-house-zon... [1] https://americantinyhouseassociation.org/minimum-size-for-a-tiny-house-to-meet-irc-2015/ https://americantinyhouseassociation.org/minimum-size-for-a-...
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Your article seems to misrepresent the minimum room size in the IRC for the minimum total house area: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/minimum-house-size-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/minimum-hou... “The IRC codes require that all homes must be built on a minimum of 320 square feet. The minimum square footage for a house is 120 square feet, and at least one room must be habitable. Habitable rooms meet other regulations, such as needing a closet and at least one window. Other rooms, not meant for sleeping, must be at least 70 square feet.” It also weasel words (and apparently succeeds in tricking you with it) about what zoning requires; what you interpret as “most” is actually described inbthe article you cite with the far weaker “many”: > Many cities and counties, however, have a minimum size requirement of 1,000 square feet or more for construction of a new home on its own land Not “most”.