2 ms·

The general consensus seems to be that the genocide was ordered by the Three Pashas, especially Talaat Pasha, who were the de facto rulers at the time: https:/

by scythe 6y ago

The general consensus seems to be that the genocide was ordered by the Three Pashas, especially Talaat Pasha, who were the de facto rulers at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 None of them survived to see the end of the Turkish Revolution. Ataturk was a mere lieutenant colonel at the outbreak of WWI and did not reach the Caucasus theatre until January 1916, eight months after the outbreak of genocide -- he went on to win a few crucial battles and was then shipped to the Levant. However, Turkey did go on to deny their crimes and venerate Talaat Pasha, who played some role in the development of modern Turkish institutions. Kieser, who is likely the source of your claims, does not implicate Ataturk directly, but does emphasize the influence of Talaat on modern Turkey: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR9 https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=... but see also the counterpoint: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1613829 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1...

fakedang 6y ago
Yes, this is what I was referring to. The Three Pashas were all military men who very much influenced the Turkish independence movement and modern Turkey itself. The genocide wasn't just limited to the World War though. A lot of significant damage happened between 1919-1923, when the Turkish were fighting for independence. And by 1918, Ataturk was already a general in the Ottoman Army.
- nickik 6y ago
  While the Young Turks clearly had some more interest in making the empire more Turkish, before WW1 pretty much anybody in the government called themselves Ottomans, not Turks. Turk was mostly use for the poor elements. And they were not military men, they were the civilian government of the empire.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    > And they were not military men, they were the civilian government of the empire. > Mehmed Talaat Pasha (1874–1921), the Grand Vizier (prime minister) and Minister of the Interior; Ismail Enver Pasha (1881–1922), the Minister of War; and Ahmed Cemal Pasha (1872–1922), the Minister of the Navy. I don't know about you, but their positions sound very military to me. AFAIK, they are military or quasi-military departments in every country I've visited.
    - nickik 6y ago
      You are simply embracing yourself at this point. Prime minister and minister of the interior? Clearly not military positions. Minister of War and Minister of the Navy is a civilian position as well. Armies are lead by Generals, Navy by admirals, the civilian positions overseeing these institutions in the name of the civilian government. Again, the Young Turks were in control of the whole government. Whatever their individual positions were, they are simply the government. Denying that is is simply not defensible.
      - fakedang 6y ago
        > Ismail Enver Pasha (Ottoman Turkish: اسماعیل انور پاشا‎; Turkish: İsmail Enver Paşa; 22 November 1881 – 4 August 1922) was an Ottoman military officer who formed one-third of the dictatorial triumvirate known as the "Three Pashas" (along with Talaat Pasha and Cemal Pasha) in the Ottoman Empire. > Ahmed Djemal Pasha (Ottoman Turkish: احمد جمال پاشا‎, romanized: Ahmet Cemâl Paşa; 6 May 1872 – 21 July 1922), also known as Jamal Basha as-Saffah ("the Bloodthirsty") in the Arab world, was an Ottoman military leader and one of the Three Pashas that ruled the Ottoman Empire during World War I and carried out the Armenian Genocide. Notice the common word in those two? Military Leader. At this point you're just spouting rubbish by calling those positions civilian positions. Also the minister of the Interior is very much a quasi-military position in a lot of countries even today, and especially in a centralized government like the Ottoman Empire. As was the position of Prime Minister/Grand Vizier. > In the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Military Tribunal convicted and sentenced to death Talaat in absentia for his role in the Armenian Genocide. I'll leave this one as a tangent.

by scythe 6y ago

fakedang 6y ago

Yes, this is what I was referring to. The Three Pashas were all military men who very much influenced the Turkish independence movement and modern Turkey itself. The genocide wasn't just limited to the World War though. A lot of significant damage happened between 1919-1923, when the Turkish were fighting for independence. And by 1918, Ataturk was already a general in the Ottoman Army.

nickik 6y ago
While the Young Turks clearly had some more interest in making the empire more Turkish, before WW1 pretty much anybody in the government called themselves Ottomans, not Turks. Turk was mostly use for the poor elements. And they were not military men, they were the civilian government of the empire.
- fakedang 6y ago
  > And they were not military men, they were the civilian government of the empire. > Mehmed Talaat Pasha (1874–1921), the Grand Vizier (prime minister) and Minister of the Interior; Ismail Enver Pasha (1881–1922), the Minister of War; and Ahmed Cemal Pasha (1872–1922), the Minister of the Navy. I don't know about you, but their positions sound very military to me. AFAIK, they are military or quasi-military departments in every country I've visited.
  - nickik 6y ago
    You are simply embracing yourself at this point. Prime minister and minister of the interior? Clearly not military positions. Minister of War and Minister of the Navy is a civilian position as well. Armies are lead by Generals, Navy by admirals, the civilian positions overseeing these institutions in the name of the civilian government. Again, the Young Turks were in control of the whole government. Whatever their individual positions were, they are simply the government. Denying that is is simply not defensible.
    - fakedang 6y ago
      > Ismail Enver Pasha (Ottoman Turkish: اسماعیل انور پاشا‎; Turkish: İsmail Enver Paşa; 22 November 1881 – 4 August 1922) was an Ottoman military officer who formed one-third of the dictatorial triumvirate known as the "Three Pashas" (along with Talaat Pasha and Cemal Pasha) in the Ottoman Empire. > Ahmed Djemal Pasha (Ottoman Turkish: احمد جمال پاشا‎, romanized: Ahmet Cemâl Paşa; 6 May 1872 – 21 July 1922), also known as Jamal Basha as-Saffah ("the Bloodthirsty") in the Arab world, was an Ottoman military leader and one of the Three Pashas that ruled the Ottoman Empire during World War I and carried out the Armenian Genocide. Notice the common word in those two? Military Leader. At this point you're just spouting rubbish by calling those positions civilian positions. Also the minister of the Interior is very much a quasi-military position in a lot of countries even today, and especially in a centralized government like the Ottoman Empire. As was the position of Prime Minister/Grand Vizier. > In the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Military Tribunal convicted and sentenced to death Talaat in absentia for his role in the Armenian Genocide. I'll leave this one as a tangent.