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> The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. I'm not so sure ab

> The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a lamppost or something that will take up half a small sidewalk. Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems to happen somewhat less often. On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me there are two main issues which made me stop using them: 1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from traffic have mainly cobblestones. 2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate or delicately manoeuvre around something. They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared bikes, so I much prefer the latter.

kapp_in_life 6y ago
I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  > I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. I wholly agree. I think it's just like trash on the ground, it mostly doesn't get itself there on its own. But maybe companies should take the habits of local people into account. If you know people won't bother to leave them out of the way, maybe don't deploy your service there? Just as if you know people are going to trash your scooters, steal batteries or anything else, you won't enter that market because it will be too expensive. But I guess the latter affects the company's bottom line, whereas the former is, at worst, just bad press.
  - notatoad 6y ago
    Scooters being dumped in the middle of a useful space is a function of there being literally nowhere to park a scooter. Sure, people are lazy and selfish, but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter. I don't see anybody suggesting car ownership should be forbidden from cities where there isn't enough parking. Why is providing parking only the responsibility of scooter companies, and not car companies? Cities adapt to meet the needs of the residents, and the needs of the residents can change. That change shouldn't be forbidden because of the current structure of our cities
    - deleted 6y ago
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    - vladvasiliu 6y ago
      > but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter. You'd think so. Take a stroll through the streets of Paris and then see if you still stand by this statement. Even when the sidewalk is narrow, you can leave your scooter against a wall, not across the sidewalk. You can maybe leave it 50 meters further, where the sidewalk is wider, etc. You know, try to be considerate of other people who probably don't want to have to push your scooter out of the way just because you didn't feel like taking 10 seconds to park it properly. When the infrastructure is lacking, you can either be a nuisance and argue that it's the city's fault for not providing wider sidewalks or whatever, or try to adapt to the situation while the city does something about it. Of course the cities have to adapt to the needs of their residents. But they usually are slow to do that. Now, even if I personally dislike those scooters, I won't argue for outright banning them. But at some point, I can understand people being frustrated with other people being an outright nuisance. And guess what? Paris actually has laws on the books prohibiting this (randomly blocking sidewalks, or riding a bike or motorised vehicle on them). But they are rarely enforced. So people get angry. And I figure that just as cities have to change to suit the needs of their scooter-riding residents, they also have to adapt to those of their non-scooter-riding residents, too. Now of course, the best solution would be the one which would content both parties, but politics being what they are, it's easier to ask to outright ban things. But, again, I don't think that's always the best approach and don't personally advocate for it. I actually think that it would be better to replace cars with electric scooters, and that they do need infrastructure which the city should build (and they're actually doing it). But I can't condone antisocial behaviour by scooter-riders while the city builds said infrastructure. And yes, if people apparently can't be trusted to ride them in a way which doesn't endanger or incommode others, maybe outright banning is a solution. I think "this is why we can't have nice things" applies perfectly here. Also, just because cars are a nuisance it shouldn't mean that we should accept any new nuisance. We should fight back against this, and the first step is to not worsen an already bad situation.
analog31 6y ago
In my view, bikes have been around long enough that most people who are riding them, have some amount of experience, that affects their habits and expectations. This would affect things like route choice, courtesy, parking, and so forth. When a newcomer shows up, they're already surrounded by experienced cyclists. A bike also demands a basic amount of skill that has to be learned somewhere. When bike shares are introduced into a town, you don't have a bunch of people on them who are riding a bike for their first time ever. This shouldn't be technically impossible with scooters, and would happen if people owned them and brought them into the transportation mix gradually. But it doesn't fit into the "startup bubble" business model that seems to drive their rapid ascent and equally rapid disappearance in most cities.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Also, at least until the recent trend of dockless rental bikes, you needed to physically chain up a bike to something unless you wanted it stolen. Most of the things that one can reasonably chain a bike to are generally located on the side of the street to begin with; they may just out into the public right of way because of their size, but it doesn't usually block the whole street. Dockless scooters have no such requirement and so it's not that surprising that people went with the path of least resistance and just dumped them in the middle.
agumonkey 6y ago
Point 2 is true. Very few people can coast around with them. Either we need training + regulation or it will go away because too many dangers. And that's on walkways.. in France they're categorized as vehicles so they're forced to use roads and you don't want to drive anywhere near an unsure user riding at 20mph without any form of safety protection and feeble balance.

kapp_in_life 6y ago

I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.

vladvasiliu 6y ago
> I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. I wholly agree. I think it's just like trash on the ground, it mostly doesn't get itself there on its own. But maybe companies should take the habits of local people into account. If you know people won't bother to leave them out of the way, maybe don't deploy your service there? Just as if you know people are going to trash your scooters, steal batteries or anything else, you won't enter that market because it will be too expensive. But I guess the latter affects the company's bottom line, whereas the former is, at worst, just bad press.
- notatoad 6y ago
  Scooters being dumped in the middle of a useful space is a function of there being literally nowhere to park a scooter. Sure, people are lazy and selfish, but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter. I don't see anybody suggesting car ownership should be forbidden from cities where there isn't enough parking. Why is providing parking only the responsibility of scooter companies, and not car companies? Cities adapt to meet the needs of the residents, and the needs of the residents can change. That change shouldn't be forbidden because of the current structure of our cities
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    > but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter. You'd think so. Take a stroll through the streets of Paris and then see if you still stand by this statement. Even when the sidewalk is narrow, you can leave your scooter against a wall, not across the sidewalk. You can maybe leave it 50 meters further, where the sidewalk is wider, etc. You know, try to be considerate of other people who probably don't want to have to push your scooter out of the way just because you didn't feel like taking 10 seconds to park it properly. When the infrastructure is lacking, you can either be a nuisance and argue that it's the city's fault for not providing wider sidewalks or whatever, or try to adapt to the situation while the city does something about it. Of course the cities have to adapt to the needs of their residents. But they usually are slow to do that. Now, even if I personally dislike those scooters, I won't argue for outright banning them. But at some point, I can understand people being frustrated with other people being an outright nuisance. And guess what? Paris actually has laws on the books prohibiting this (randomly blocking sidewalks, or riding a bike or motorised vehicle on them). But they are rarely enforced. So people get angry. And I figure that just as cities have to change to suit the needs of their scooter-riding residents, they also have to adapt to those of their non-scooter-riding residents, too. Now of course, the best solution would be the one which would content both parties, but politics being what they are, it's easier to ask to outright ban things. But, again, I don't think that's always the best approach and don't personally advocate for it. I actually think that it would be better to replace cars with electric scooters, and that they do need infrastructure which the city should build (and they're actually doing it). But I can't condone antisocial behaviour by scooter-riders while the city builds said infrastructure. And yes, if people apparently can't be trusted to ride them in a way which doesn't endanger or incommode others, maybe outright banning is a solution. I think "this is why we can't have nice things" applies perfectly here. Also, just because cars are a nuisance it shouldn't mean that we should accept any new nuisance. We should fight back against this, and the first step is to not worsen an already bad situation.

analog31 6y ago

In my view, bikes have been around long enough that most people who are riding them, have some amount of experience, that affects their habits and expectations. This would affect things like route choice, courtesy, parking, and so forth. When a newcomer shows up, they're already surrounded by experienced cyclists. A bike also demands a basic amount of skill that has to be learned somewhere. When bike shares are introduced into a town, you don't have a bunch of people on them who are riding a bike for their first time ever. This shouldn't be technically impossible with scooters, and would happen if people owned them and brought them into the transportation mix gradually. But it doesn't fit into the "startup bubble" business model that seems to drive their rapid ascent and equally rapid disappearance in most cities.

bobthepanda 6y ago
Also, at least until the recent trend of dockless rental bikes, you needed to physically chain up a bike to something unless you wanted it stolen. Most of the things that one can reasonably chain a bike to are generally located on the side of the street to begin with; they may just out into the public right of way because of their size, but it doesn't usually block the whole street. Dockless scooters have no such requirement and so it's not that surprising that people went with the path of least resistance and just dumped them in the middle.

agumonkey 6y ago

Point 2 is true. Very few people can coast around with them. Either we need training + regulation or it will go away because too many dangers. And that's on walkways.. in France they're categorized as vehicles so they're forced to use roads and you don't want to drive anywhere near an unsure user riding at 20mph without any form of safety protection and feeble balance.