4 ms·

IDE vs Text editor. OOP vs Functional. Logger vs debugger. The holy wars that shouldn't be. Why can't we all be friends and accept that Vim is better than emacs

by mekoka 6y ago

IDE vs Text editor. OOP vs Functional. Logger vs debugger. The holy wars that shouldn't be. Why can't we all be friends and accept that Vim is better than emacs.

catillac 6y ago
I heard the latter sentiment earlier today, but I don’t think anyone is actually passionate about what editor others use. Opinionated sometimes.
- tyingq 6y ago
  Most of the time, I suppose. Watching someone try to write java in vim (or generally, without an IDE) gives me anxiety though, even with a language server :)
  - mdpye 6y ago
    Meh, it's fine. In general, I find that vim in more productive most of the time (now I have a language server, before, wouldn't ever consider it!) The fluid and consistent (java is only a portion of what I write at work) editing experience is mostly more valuable to me than the slightly better autocompletion. I keep intellij installed, but it only open it if I want to do a fancy mechanical refactor, like extract an interface from an existing class. Smaller niceties like creating a local variable from an expression are only a handful of keystrokes just feel like naturally describing what I want (lexically, rather than semantically, I'll admit) in vim anyway.
  - themadsens 6y ago
    That's perfectly doable. I routinely navigate / extend / debug / refactor a 600 KLOC Java codebase with nvim + ctags + ripgrep and will have the job done well before the language server has even completed digging through those 600 KLOC.
- h2odragon 6y ago
  Passion about the tools others use can be called for if you can see they're obviously struggling to meet their goals with the tools they've chosen. The hard part is, unlike a screwdriver where you can demonstrate, editors and "IT" in general are mental tools where the mindset is an invisible, nontransferable "handle" to the visible portion that everyone can see and use.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    A previous manager was snarky about me using Emacs to write Python instead of “a proper tool”. Every time he’d pass my desk, “a real IDE could to that for you”. We finally had a conversation along the lines of “can it save me more time than you waste pestering me about meaningless stuff? Also, STFU until I miss a deadline for the first time since I’ve been here.” I would not hire a carpenter who doesn’t believe in using hammers. Neither would I constantly bug a hired carpenter to use the hammer I think they should be using instead of the one they like.
fao_ 6y ago
I used to think like you, friend! For over a decade, then I discovered doom emacs :)
- mcbuilder 6y ago
  For those wondering, Doom Emacs is a better vim (from evil-mode) than vim and so much more (easy out of the box community configs for most languages and tools, and way more cool stuff) inside the Emacs OS.
  - j4yav 6y ago
    I tried using it but got stuck on having to learn Lisp to understand my config file.
    - revscat 6y ago
      Apparently all the cool kids are using neovim + Lua these days. Lisp turned me off of emacs years ago as well. Recently I started digging into Neovim and have found Lua much easier to parse/internalize than Lisp, and kind of a joy to work with.
      - j4yav 6y ago
        Great, I am at least halfway on the right track since I am using neovim. I know Lua a bit, I actually didn’t realize it was integrated.
    - fao_ 6y ago
      I'm not sure what's difficult about (map! :n "ff" #'save-buffer) ; Save (map! :n "fq" #'kill-current-buffer) ; Quit a buffer or (defun my/org-buffer-check () "Check that we are in org-directory, and the buffer name is in that directory" (and (string= org-directory default-directory) (seq-contains (directory-files org-directory nil) (buffer-name) 'string=))) the latter being easily represented as: function my/org-buffer-check() return string=(org-directory, default-directory) and seq-contains(directory-files(org-directory, nil), buffer-name(), &string=) end (seq-contains looks through the sequence returned by directory-files, for the result of buffer-name(), and compares them using the string equality function)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lr4444lr 6y ago
How's file exploring and method/class definition lookup these days in Vim?
- pjio 6y ago
  The quality of the language servers vary, but you could get a decent IDE-like experience.
- AlexCoventry 6y ago
  LSP is a great leveler, for that. From what I hear, vim has great LSP support, these days.
- russellendicott 6y ago
  For the junk I write and work with Ag/Rg has been sufficient.
lamontcg 6y ago
I've been a vim print debuggerer for like 30 years, and last year picked up writing C# in an IDE (Rider) and its been quite nice really.
Tade0 6y ago
Let us not forget the war to end all wars: Tabs vs spaces
- mjevans 6y ago
  Tabs are the clear winner here, since they unambiguously denote which level of indent is in use, take only one character (octet) per indent level, and can be visually adjusted on any moderately advanced editing program to an end users taste WITHOUT modifying the source code. This __wouldn't matter__ if we all just used TABS for indent level and if spaces were ignored for that: I also prefer tabs to show in a GUI code editor at ~4 characters, but be equivalent to 8 display characters in terminal modes (I guess EM size, but when I care about those I really want a 'fixed width' font, so toss all of the complexity aside please).
  - nottorp 6y ago
    > unambiguously Multi people teams (or just one person editing on different platforms depending on need) using different editors and with different preferences would like to have a word with you here.

by mekoka 6y ago

IDE vs Text editor. OOP vs Functional. Logger vs debugger. The holy wars that shouldn't be. Why can't we all be friends and accept that Vim is better than emacs.

catillac 6y ago

I heard the latter sentiment earlier today, but I don’t think anyone is actually passionate about what editor others use. Opinionated sometimes.

tyingq 6y ago
Most of the time, I suppose. Watching someone try to write java in vim (or generally, without an IDE) gives me anxiety though, even with a language server :)
- mdpye 6y ago
  Meh, it's fine. In general, I find that vim in more productive most of the time (now I have a language server, before, wouldn't ever consider it!) The fluid and consistent (java is only a portion of what I write at work) editing experience is mostly more valuable to me than the slightly better autocompletion. I keep intellij installed, but it only open it if I want to do a fancy mechanical refactor, like extract an interface from an existing class. Smaller niceties like creating a local variable from an expression are only a handful of keystrokes just feel like naturally describing what I want (lexically, rather than semantically, I'll admit) in vim anyway.
- themadsens 6y ago
  That's perfectly doable. I routinely navigate / extend / debug / refactor a 600 KLOC Java codebase with nvim + ctags + ripgrep and will have the job done well before the language server has even completed digging through those 600 KLOC.
h2odragon 6y ago
Passion about the tools others use can be called for if you can see they're obviously struggling to meet their goals with the tools they've chosen. The hard part is, unlike a screwdriver where you can demonstrate, editors and "IT" in general are mental tools where the mindset is an invisible, nontransferable "handle" to the visible portion that everyone can see and use.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  A previous manager was snarky about me using Emacs to write Python instead of “a proper tool”. Every time he’d pass my desk, “a real IDE could to that for you”. We finally had a conversation along the lines of “can it save me more time than you waste pestering me about meaningless stuff? Also, STFU until I miss a deadline for the first time since I’ve been here.” I would not hire a carpenter who doesn’t believe in using hammers. Neither would I constantly bug a hired carpenter to use the hammer I think they should be using instead of the one they like.

fao_ 6y ago

I used to think like you, friend! For over a decade, then I discovered doom emacs :)

mcbuilder 6y ago
For those wondering, Doom Emacs is a better vim (from evil-mode) than vim and so much more (easy out of the box community configs for most languages and tools, and way more cool stuff) inside the Emacs OS.
- j4yav 6y ago
  I tried using it but got stuck on having to learn Lisp to understand my config file.
  - revscat 6y ago
    Apparently all the cool kids are using neovim + Lua these days. Lisp turned me off of emacs years ago as well. Recently I started digging into Neovim and have found Lua much easier to parse/internalize than Lisp, and kind of a joy to work with.
    - j4yav 6y ago
      Great, I am at least halfway on the right track since I am using neovim. I know Lua a bit, I actually didn’t realize it was integrated.
  - fao_ 6y ago
    I'm not sure what's difficult about (map! :n "ff" #'save-buffer) ; Save (map! :n "fq" #'kill-current-buffer) ; Quit a buffer or (defun my/org-buffer-check () "Check that we are in org-directory, and the buffer name is in that directory" (and (string= org-directory default-directory) (seq-contains (directory-files org-directory nil) (buffer-name) 'string=))) the latter being easily represented as: function my/org-buffer-check() return string=(org-directory, default-directory) and seq-contains(directory-files(org-directory, nil), buffer-name(), &string=) end (seq-contains looks through the sequence returned by directory-files, for the result of buffer-name(), and compares them using the string equality function)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

lr4444lr 6y ago

How's file exploring and method/class definition lookup these days in Vim?

pjio 6y ago
The quality of the language servers vary, but you could get a decent IDE-like experience.
AlexCoventry 6y ago
LSP is a great leveler, for that. From what I hear, vim has great LSP support, these days.
russellendicott 6y ago
For the junk I write and work with Ag/Rg has been sufficient.

lamontcg 6y ago

I've been a vim print debuggerer for like 30 years, and last year picked up writing C# in an IDE (Rider) and its been quite nice really.

Tade0 6y ago

Let us not forget the war to end all wars: Tabs vs spaces

mjevans 6y ago
Tabs are the clear winner here, since they unambiguously denote which level of indent is in use, take only one character (octet) per indent level, and can be visually adjusted on any moderately advanced editing program to an end users taste WITHOUT modifying the source code. This __wouldn't matter__ if we all just used TABS for indent level and if spaces were ignored for that: I also prefer tabs to show in a GUI code editor at ~4 characters, but be equivalent to 8 display characters in terminal modes (I guess EM size, but when I care about those I really want a 'fixed width' font, so toss all of the complexity aside please).
- nottorp 6y ago
  > unambiguously Multi people teams (or just one person editing on different platforms depending on need) using different editors and with different preferences would like to have a word with you here.