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> One example, a childhood friend of mine got a $75 parking ticket that he was not aware of, by the time he found out it was now $250 due to late fees and the s

> One example, a childhood friend of mine got a $75 parking ticket that he was not aware of, by the time he found out it was now $250 due to late fees and the state revoked his car registration. Unknown to him, he’s pulled over on the way to work and now gets slapped with another $200 for driving an unregistered vehicle. It was the end of the month, he didn’t have $500 to pay the fines and had to drive to work or lose his job. Pulled over again, this time license revoked and the fees are over $1000 and growing every month he could not pay. A warrant was eventually issued for his arrest, resulting in more fees accrued for the arrest and the interest of his unpaid fees while he was in jail. So all these things happened and it was all during this unknown to him that it happened? How does one have one's driver's licence revoked without being informed thereof? This more so reads as though he did not properly read the notices he received from the government. > Ha ha, I’m sure the person struggling to stay afloat can afford a lawyer. That is why lawyers are appointed to the indigent in criminal cases.

mindslight 6y ago
> How does one have one's driver's licence revoked without being informed thereof? > That is why lawyers are appointed to the indigent in criminal cases. Are you speaking from direct experience with any of this? If not, please stop repeating plesant fictions of how the system claims to operate. I have a friend whose license got suspended with no notice, until they were pulled over and their car was towed. The state insists that having sent "notice" by first class mail (with no guarantee of delivery) is good enough, even though certified mail is the minimum for legal process. I also have another friend that had only a few hundred dollars to their name, was arrested and charged with a felony, and was laughed at when asking to continue with the public defender after the arraignment. The system will readily give you representation so you can be formally charged, after that you're on your own. They had to end up borrowing cash for bail and ongoing representation. That doesn't even touch upon the injustice of being wrongfully arrested, acquitted, but still having to pay for the legal circus and missed work. Actual reality is much different than the narratives held by people that haven't ever had to suffer the system.
sthnblllII 6y ago
In the US, criminal defense lawyers are only appointed after you have been charged with a criminal offense and are awaiting trial, which only happens after you have been put in jail. Negotiating a parking violation would require private counsel which easily costs more than the amount of the fine. As for the failure to inform, state agencies often have old addresses on record. Some people do try to avoid parking tickets by pretending to not get the notice, but even when that happens this spiral of duchbagery is bull.
skinnymuch 6y ago
Things are readily possible in many ways. What if you don’t have a permanent home/address or consistent access to the internet? It is very easy to miss notices while trying to be on top of things. — Lawyers and being appointed don’t work that way. Why would you be appointed a lawyer for non criminal activities?
CptFribble 6y ago
I don't know if you're from the USA (based on your username), but here government is very inefficient at the state/county/town levels where these sorts of things play out. Maybe the department that issues tickets in your town doesn't have modern internet connected systems, so they only send notices by mail. If they have the wrong address in their systems for whatever reason (multiple legacy computer systems that don't talk to each other, happens all the time), you won't get the notice but you'll still be held responsible. It's entirely plausible in cases like these that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing - the ticket is generated, various due dates are set and the paper notices are dispatched, but there's no system to verify if the notices are delivered. Instead, the due dates pass without response and the system generates more fees, more notices, more due dates, until the above scenario reaches its conclusion where a warrant for arrest is issued and makes its way into the police computer systems. In many places in the USA, there's no built-in feedback for the ticket-issuing authorities to ensure that notices were actually received until the police get involved with a warrant. The notices are just fired off, the government says it's the citizen's responsibility no matter what, and they wash their hands of the consequences. Additionally, in some places traffic tickets in particular have their own separate mini-justice system called "traffic court" or similar, and different rules apply - like no court-appointed lawyers because it's not technically a crime, no juries or even a "real" judge (just a magistrate or administrator), and so on. It also varies wildly by state and town. It's hard to talk about governance in the USA in general terms because it is so highly federated. For all the power and visibility of the federal government, state and local authorities wield enormous influence over the lives of their citizens. In some ways, the USA is closer in structure to the EU than a single unified country. In many ways, interacting with government and the justice system in the USA is incredibly byzantine, verging on kafka-esque. If you search around, you will find an endless series of stories of people who commit some minor infraction and are subsequently lost in the labyrinth of government, sometimes even destroying their lives and livelihoods in the process.

mindslight 6y ago

> How does one have one's driver's licence revoked without being informed thereof? > That is why lawyers are appointed to the indigent in criminal cases. Are you speaking from direct experience with any of this? If not, please stop repeating plesant fictions of how the system claims to operate. I have a friend whose license got suspended with no notice, until they were pulled over and their car was towed. The state insists that having sent "notice" by first class mail (with no guarantee of delivery) is good enough, even though certified mail is the minimum for legal process. I also have another friend that had only a few hundred dollars to their name, was arrested and charged with a felony, and was laughed at when asking to continue with the public defender after the arraignment. The system will readily give you representation so you can be formally charged, after that you're on your own. They had to end up borrowing cash for bail and ongoing representation. That doesn't even touch upon the injustice of being wrongfully arrested, acquitted, but still having to pay for the legal circus and missed work. Actual reality is much different than the narratives held by people that haven't ever had to suffer the system.

sthnblllII 6y ago

In the US, criminal defense lawyers are only appointed after you have been charged with a criminal offense and are awaiting trial, which only happens after you have been put in jail. Negotiating a parking violation would require private counsel which easily costs more than the amount of the fine. As for the failure to inform, state agencies often have old addresses on record. Some people do try to avoid parking tickets by pretending to not get the notice, but even when that happens this spiral of duchbagery is bull.

skinnymuch 6y ago

Things are readily possible in many ways. What if you don’t have a permanent home/address or consistent access to the internet? It is very easy to miss notices while trying to be on top of things. — Lawyers and being appointed don’t work that way. Why would you be appointed a lawyer for non criminal activities?

CptFribble 6y ago

I don't know if you're from the USA (based on your username), but here government is very inefficient at the state/county/town levels where these sorts of things play out. Maybe the department that issues tickets in your town doesn't have modern internet connected systems, so they only send notices by mail. If they have the wrong address in their systems for whatever reason (multiple legacy computer systems that don't talk to each other, happens all the time), you won't get the notice but you'll still be held responsible. It's entirely plausible in cases like these that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing - the ticket is generated, various due dates are set and the paper notices are dispatched, but there's no system to verify if the notices are delivered. Instead, the due dates pass without response and the system generates more fees, more notices, more due dates, until the above scenario reaches its conclusion where a warrant for arrest is issued and makes its way into the police computer systems. In many places in the USA, there's no built-in feedback for the ticket-issuing authorities to ensure that notices were actually received until the police get involved with a warrant. The notices are just fired off, the government says it's the citizen's responsibility no matter what, and they wash their hands of the consequences. Additionally, in some places traffic tickets in particular have their own separate mini-justice system called "traffic court" or similar, and different rules apply - like no court-appointed lawyers because it's not technically a crime, no juries or even a "real" judge (just a magistrate or administrator), and so on. It also varies wildly by state and town. It's hard to talk about governance in the USA in general terms because it is so highly federated. For all the power and visibility of the federal government, state and local authorities wield enormous influence over the lives of their citizens. In some ways, the USA is closer in structure to the EU than a single unified country. In many ways, interacting with government and the justice system in the USA is incredibly byzantine, verging on kafka-esque. If you search around, you will find an endless series of stories of people who commit some minor infraction and are subsequently lost in the labyrinth of government, sometimes even destroying their lives and livelihoods in the process.