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"Typography is not merely the process of arranging font on a page. It is a living creature; it feels joy in an exclamation point, ...." Perhaps I'm just not as

"Typography is not merely the process of arranging font on a page. It is a living creature; it feels joy in an exclamation point, ...." Perhaps I'm just not as excited about typography as I should be, but isn't this a bit too much hype? When I'm told that typography is a living creature that feels joy, I'm immediately going to categorize the teller as a person I will not understand. Instant loss of credibility.

aristus 15y ago
No offense, but the teller will then categorize you as a person lacking imagination. Instant loss of credibility. Communication fails once again and the world is that much poorer. No one is to blame, but it's sad to see it happen.
- andos 15y ago
  I disagree: the author is to blame. Every message has an audience and the author must know that when they write. At Hacker News we are, well, hackers in the broadest sense. While some of us might appreciate typography for what it is, I believe most want to know how it might improve their products and services. Allegoric prose does not help, in this case. (Edit: to clarify what it is I disagree.)
  - thisuser 15y ago
    In this case perhaps the audience should grow up and learn about the side of the world that doesn't follow strict formal logic. Hackers shouldn't be afraid of aesthetic arguments, with all of the desire for elegant solutions they profess.
    - andos 15y ago
      Nobody is questioning the necessity of aesthetic considerations to solve problems of all kinds. What brought up this discussion was the usage of ornate but empty language to describe typography. Quicksort is an elegant solution but would you pay any attention to a text stating that ”Quicksort is not merely a sorting algorithm. It is a living creature; it feels joy at a well-chosen pivot point?“ That notwithstanding, I disagree again. When the author disregards their audience, alienation ensues. To change someone’s mind, I must first have someone’s attention. It’s my job as the author to make the audience grow up.
      - tree_of_item 15y ago
        "Algorithms can be beautiful", or "code can be beautiful" is certainly something I wouldn't be surprised to hear from a programmer. I don't see people freaking out over those usages, though.
        andos 15y ago
        Certainly, yes, and appropriately so. Furthermore, ”code can be beautiful” entices attention and curiosity while ornate language does not. That’s all I meant.
andos 15y ago
That passage is trying to emulate Robert Bringhurst's tone in his Elements of Typographic Style. See for yourself: One of the principles of durable typography is always legibility; another is something more than legibility: some earned or unearned interest that gives its living energy to the page. It takes various forms and goes by various names, including serenity, liveliness, laughter, grace and joy. I am a typography geek myself and, while I was enticed by Bringhurst's prose when I first read it, I can't stand every blog post about typography trying so hard to sound like him. First, as someone already pointed out, people are just rehashing his advice without adapting their essence to our media, the web. Second, people babble about typography for the sake of typography, forgetting that in the real world it's just a tool. As such, I leave another remark from Bringhurst: [The] satisfactions of [typography] come from elucidating, and perhaps enobling the text, not from deluding the unwary reader by applying scents, paints and iron stays to empty prose.
biturd 15y ago
For me, this Shop•Vac Pardoy Commercial thingy had really great typography. It kepy me interested the entire time. Granted, it had other elements keeping me interested, though I feel it was mainly the interesting use of type. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sOfO8Ei1g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sOfO8Ei1g
jerf 15y ago
People feel joy in different things. I once heard a very rough and gruff high schooler I went to school with describe standing in front of the original of Van Gogh's Starry Night and having a profoundly emotional experience. I don't have that experience from visual stimuli, but I know what he means, because I get it from many forms of music. To the author, typography is a living creature; to me, typography is the process of arranging a font on a page with some aesthetics. We're both right, as are several other positions. (Though unlike many cases where I see typography and can agree it is at least more aesthetic than average, that page struck me as not "minimalist" so much as "pedestrian"; am I missing a font download because I'm on Linux or something? I've seen good fonts for such minimalism but that's rending in my bog-standard browser serif font. Edit: Oh, ha, the problem is I have Georgia set as my default font! Thus my personal response to that font may be different than for someone who hasn't done that.)

aristus 15y ago

No offense, but the teller will then categorize you as a person lacking imagination. Instant loss of credibility. Communication fails once again and the world is that much poorer. No one is to blame, but it's sad to see it happen.

andos 15y ago
I disagree: the author is to blame. Every message has an audience and the author must know that when they write. At Hacker News we are, well, hackers in the broadest sense. While some of us might appreciate typography for what it is, I believe most want to know how it might improve their products and services. Allegoric prose does not help, in this case. (Edit: to clarify what it is I disagree.)
- thisuser 15y ago
  In this case perhaps the audience should grow up and learn about the side of the world that doesn't follow strict formal logic. Hackers shouldn't be afraid of aesthetic arguments, with all of the desire for elegant solutions they profess.
  - andos 15y ago
    Nobody is questioning the necessity of aesthetic considerations to solve problems of all kinds. What brought up this discussion was the usage of ornate but empty language to describe typography. Quicksort is an elegant solution but would you pay any attention to a text stating that ”Quicksort is not merely a sorting algorithm. It is a living creature; it feels joy at a well-chosen pivot point?“ That notwithstanding, I disagree again. When the author disregards their audience, alienation ensues. To change someone’s mind, I must first have someone’s attention. It’s my job as the author to make the audience grow up.
    - tree_of_item 15y ago
      "Algorithms can be beautiful", or "code can be beautiful" is certainly something I wouldn't be surprised to hear from a programmer. I don't see people freaking out over those usages, though.
      - andos 15y ago
        Certainly, yes, and appropriately so. Furthermore, ”code can be beautiful” entices attention and curiosity while ornate language does not. That’s all I meant.

andos 15y ago

That passage is trying to emulate Robert Bringhurst's tone in his Elements of Typographic Style. See for yourself: One of the principles of durable typography is always legibility; another is something more than legibility: some earned or unearned interest that gives its living energy to the page. It takes various forms and goes by various names, including serenity, liveliness, laughter, grace and joy. I am a typography geek myself and, while I was enticed by Bringhurst's prose when I first read it, I can't stand every blog post about typography trying so hard to sound like him. First, as someone already pointed out, people are just rehashing his advice without adapting their essence to our media, the web. Second, people babble about typography for the sake of typography, forgetting that in the real world it's just a tool. As such, I leave another remark from Bringhurst: [The] satisfactions of [typography] come from elucidating, and perhaps enobling the text, not from deluding the unwary reader by applying scents, paints and iron stays to empty prose.

biturd 15y ago

For me, this Shop•Vac Pardoy Commercial thingy had really great typography. It kepy me interested the entire time. Granted, it had other elements keeping me interested, though I feel it was mainly the interesting use of type. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sOfO8Ei1g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sOfO8Ei1g

jerf 15y ago

People feel joy in different things. I once heard a very rough and gruff high schooler I went to school with describe standing in front of the original of Van Gogh's Starry Night and having a profoundly emotional experience. I don't have that experience from visual stimuli, but I know what he means, because I get it from many forms of music. To the author, typography is a living creature; to me, typography is the process of arranging a font on a page with some aesthetics. We're both right, as are several other positions. (Though unlike many cases where I see typography and can agree it is at least more aesthetic than average, that page struck me as not "minimalist" so much as "pedestrian"; am I missing a font download because I'm on Linux or something? I've seen good fonts for such minimalism but that's rending in my bog-standard browser serif font. Edit: Oh, ha, the problem is I have Georgia set as my default font! Thus my personal response to that font may be different than for someone who hasn't done that.)