19 ms·

E-Scooters roll into New York

43 points by kwindla 5y ago

void_mint 5y ago
"Loved" I hate the scooters. I do not live in SV. People ride them like jackasses and cause problems for both drivers and pedestrians.
beowulfey 5y ago
I was in Southern California and lived through the boom and bust of E-scooters. Personally, I am a huge fan, but there is a long list of pros and cons worth considering. Pros: * Fast to start up * Cheaper than uber * Doesn’t depend on stations, so way more convenient * No worry about keeping an eye on your scooter when you arrive; they were abundant enough that if yours gets taken you can grab another * Genuinely super fun Cons: * Ugly; an eyesore * Often in the way— a nightmare for accessibility * So many companies meant you needed 5 different apps * Vandalized/battery theft often an issue * Not good for carrying goods * Kinda dangerous, but then ones that topped out at 12 mph were less worth it * Creeping up in price towards the end to help profitability, which made them also less worth it The overall attitude was pretty split, but most of the people I know who disliked them had never ridden them. They really were INCREDIBLE for convenience. If your trip was 0.5-2 miles, they were amazing. I used them for running to shops, cafes, meeting at restaurants, etc. I think there is a right way to do it, and that way has to include the convenience of leaving them near your destination. Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) to get the general public to catch on. However, they also have to be managed way better than they were at first. Scooters were getting all types of people out of their cars, and they were good at it! Personally I really want the concept to stick around.
- alisonatwork 5y ago
  I can't speak for electric scooters, but bike sharing is one of the best inventions I have ever experienced, and it breaks my heart when people complain about it being ugly, or an eyesore, or dangerous. As you say, often these are either people who never used it, or they are people who already have access to alternative transport that they feel is somehow superior. It's such a self-centered attitude. Bike sharing democratizes the city, being cheap enough that even the poorest people can achieve transport independence. It should be a public service. The freedom that comes with being able to affordably pick up transport anywhere, and go anywhere, it's unparalleled in an urban context. All the dreams of self-driving cars, and in particular self-driving taxis, we already had that future and it was dockless bike share! I agree with you that there are still issues of transporting large objects, and difficulty catering to people with physical disabilities, but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good.
  - hn8788 5y ago
    You don't have to use bike/scooter sharing to see that it's an eyesore, or that people frequently drive at unsafe speeds down sidewalks. That's no more self-centered than thinking that you should be able to drive a scooter down the middle of a sidewalk meant for foot traffic, then leave it sitting wherever you want so other people have to deal with it.
    - Swenrekcah 5y ago
      I love the scooters but I completely agree that they should never be ridden on sidewalks except as a short connection between other lanes. They belong on the road (<=30mph) and cycling infrastructure. Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved.
      - wott 5y ago
        > Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved. Not quite, when people say they use them for 0.5 mile rides.
        ghaff 5y ago
        I must say I don't understand that. That's about a 15 minute walk. Even a mile doesn't seem like something a healthy person (which a person riding a scooter presumably is) really needs a transportation aid for.
        colinmhayes 5y ago
        People are incredibly lazy
        michael1999 5y ago
        Think about extending the range you can explore over lunch.
- notatoad 5y ago
  The only real downside to scooters is that our cities are completely designed around cars. Nobody complains about cars being in the way, messy, ugly, unsafe, or causing accessibility problems, but it's even more true of cars than it is of scooters. The quicker we can get our cities redesigned to meet the needs of all the people who need to get around, rather than just car drivers, the better. The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. The only way we are ever going to find the political will to adapt cities for non-car uses is if enough people use alternate transportation to make it worthwhile, and that's going to make things messy for a while. Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a lamppost or something that will take up half a small sidewalk. Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems to happen somewhat less often. On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me there are two main issues which made me stop using them: 1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from traffic have mainly cobblestones. 2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate or delicately manoeuvre around something. They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared bikes, so I much prefer the latter.
    - kapp_in_life 5y ago
      I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.
- foolfoolz 5y ago
  i agree a lot. most complainers had never used it. most users were happy with it there’s a stigma to just riding a scooter. it’s not cool. during the rent a scooter craze the lamest thing you could do was buy your own scooter for $500. i don’t know why but they have to get over that barrier before people will accept it without using it. bikes appear to have crossed that barrier, sometimes
  - vmception 5y ago
    why are you and the grandparent poster talking in past tense southern california still has a lot of scooters and it is a bit more organized than it was in the past but not remarkably different, people still buy their own scooters and the major e-scooter providers have plans for you to buy your own dedicated scooter of their brand, this article is also talking in the present tense and referring to existing californian markets too
    - beowulfey 5y ago
      Haha, I was talking in past tense because I sadly moved away; when I left there had been a temporary ban in place and wasn't sure if they were back yet.
  - leoedin 5y ago
    Privately owned escooters in London are everywhere, and mostly ridden by local teenagers and young adults. I don't think they suffer from being uncool. Possibly because they're technically illegal - so owning one is a rebellious act.
- toxik 5y ago
  E-scooters are an absolute plague in the city I live in. They are typically operated by inexperienced drivers, very often on sidewalks. 12 mph is enough to kill old people. They should be banned, there is no question.
- xeromal 5y ago
  Your 4th con was the one that always got me. These rental programs don't work when meth heads frequently throw them into the ocean, middle of the street, or in water fountains.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Extra con for the ones I tried in San Francisco: The slightest hill would make them crap out.
  - wittekm 5y ago
    Agreed - the common rental ones really have no power. I think Lime and its ilk are usually in the 300w range. I bought my own scooter on a whim; it can toggle between 500w and 1000w of power, and I rarely need the 1000w except for the craziest Seattle hills. Basically what I'm trying to say here is: totally solvable problem, just comes down to the unit cost of the rental scooters
- sneak 5y ago
  Scooters without a helmet (their normal and usual use case) are way more than "kinda" dangerous. I don't think the fact that these are extremely dangerous to their rider is a reason to ban them, though. Let fools fuck themselves up on these death traps if they like. The danger to uninvolved pedestrians is a great reason to ban them from sidewalk use, however. There is no justification for vehicle use on the sidewalk.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Here in Brussels, e-scooters are a serious plague. They are so often left in the middle of sidewalks, and they are super heavy so moving them out of the way is very annoying. Plus they start beeping like crazy. I was on roller skates a while back, someone left a scooter in the middle of the park. I picked it up to move it, it started beeping, startled me, i fell and it fell on my hand. Took me five weeks to heal. More bike sharing please. People tend to leave the bikes in appropriate spots. I agree the station-based bikes are awful (we have Villo here which is ridiculously bad). But JUMP and our local alternative Billy are cheaper and better ways to get through the city. Plus those scooters fail hard on cobblestone. It took Lime almost two years to realize their scooters were not appropriate for half the city, and to replace them with a beefier model.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  George Hotz (of all people) had a great take on e-scooter as a business model. If the startup/company puts up all the capital, has marginal costs and competition, there is never any potential for "takeoff." Impossible trifecta. That's why he thinks waymo is doomed. Uber showed that even a handful of competitors can discipline prices enough to make profiting hard. uber can at least scale without buying cars, but competition means tight margins. It's ironic that SV-Startup world accidentally created a Perfectly Normal Business Sector and found it bemusing. It's emblemagic of current private sector conundrums. Inasmuch as price competition exists, the value of the S&P 500 approaches zero. That's chalkboard extremism, obviously... OTOH, while "Monopoly Requirement" is too strong a descriptor but "moat" is not strong enough. The other cons (ugly/dangerous/etc.) are emblematic of current public sector conundrums. To scale scooters/biking, we need a proficient public sector. Regulation for basic safety that isn't regulating to death, or regulating badly. Also, how are we an advanced global civilization but can't adapt our cityscapes any better than literal iron age brutes. As we advance in some fields, the fields that do not advance become blatant. Our forebears dug canals with sticks, and often did a very impressive job. We can't 100X digging with sticks?
  - paxys 5y ago
    What killed e-scooters was regulation, not competition.
    - bsder 5y ago
      What killed e-scooters is the fact that they are never where you need them and they are always in all the places that are annoying. If I'm hitting the grocery store, I need a scooter near my house. The problem is that this isn't a volume point, so nobody puts more than one at a convenient point and its always gone. Once I get to the grocery store, I need one to come home. This IS a volume point, but quite a few people walk to the store and then ride home. This drains the volume point so I can't count on having one when I need it. However, I will be tripping over scooters generally at the halfway point (there's a very popular hipster coffee shop) when I walk to that grocery store--a point where the cost isn't worth it anymore so now the scooters just piss me off. The problem to be solved wasn't scooters--it was roads. We need dedicated low-speed infrastructure--walking, biking, scootering, whatever, that doesn't allow cars. However, fixing that is slow, not profitable for just you, and requires that you move the political apparatus.
- seppin 5y ago
  Every local ER will see a spike of injuries related to accidents too
- schrodinger 5y ago
  > Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) I’m not sure this is true everywhere. CitiBike is so dense in NYC that you can almost always walk about 3 blocks and see a station.
  - beowulfey 5y ago
    That's actually great to hear -- I haven't biked NYC yet, but definitely having enough stations would fix that problem!
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  Unfortunately after the initial honeymoon period it seems like the scooter companies have jacked up their prices. Uber costs about 50% more per minute than Bird. However most trips Uber will require fewer minutes. Last time I flew, I thought it'd be fun to take a scooter home from the airport. I would've had to walk about a mile to the nearest scooter which based on my experience with Bird would have maybe a one in three chance of being broken. I ended up getting an Uber for $6. I guesstimated that the scooter rental (assuming nothing went wrong) would've been around $8 That said, when the prices were lower and the density was high enough that you could count on one being nearby, they were a fun way to get around
RandallBrown 5y ago
I love the idea of electric scooter (and bike) sharing but in practice it just doesn't work. Link scooters just started showing up in Seattle and I decided to take one a couple miles to meet up with a friend for dinner. It would have been faster to walk there. After bout 6 or 7 minutes of riding and only making it half a mile (and one harrowing experience with a yellow light), I stopped at a Jump bike. I opened the Uber app to book it and couldn't figure out how so I opened the Jump app. I wasn't signed in and my Uber password wasn't stored in my password manager so I had to reset my password. After doing that I finally made it into the Jump app only to have a single button that says "Launch Uber" and I was back to where I started. Of course I now had to sign in to the Uber app again since I just reset my password. I still couldn't figure out how to book the thing so I just called a Lyft and finally made it to the restaurant. (I did finally figure out how to book it once I was in the car. I think my problem was that maybe the bike I was standing near wasn't showing up on the map.) It was a bit of a comedy of errors last night but all my other experiences with electric scooters have been pretty inconvenient.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  Here you open up the app, scan the QR code and you're good to go. This is pretty much a solved problem but yes if you're logged out it can get time consuming. The problem, to me at least, is that they're quite expensive to use. I get why. Servicing them is expensive, the scooters often get vandalized and people don't take care of them.
- recuter 5y ago
  They demoed using an NFC qr-code type sticker thingy a year and a half ago: https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-electric-scooter-rent-nfc-tag https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-e... It's supposed to be one tap with no app installed when you walk up to one.
- leoedin 5y ago
  That's not a problem with scooter and bike sharing, but with that specific app. I've used a whole range of bike and scooter systems, some docked and some dockless, and mostly the apps worked fine. Scan a QR code, unlock and off you go. It can definitely work seamlessly.
cletus 5y ago
Holy crap, that's a lot of words. I'm pretty sure judicious editing could've halved the length of that. Speaking as someone who lived in NYC for 10 years I am absolutely against the scooters that plague other cities coming to NYC. Why? Several reasons: 1. There are too many people on the sidewalks. At least cyclists almost always ride on the road. In my experience, amateur scooter riders think it's fine to ride an electrified vehicle (often poorly) on the sidewalk. It's not; 2. The sidewalks are too narrow already in most places. This is exacerbated by all the permits given for various news stands, outdoor seating and whatnot that create a ton of choke points on the sidewalks as is; 3. People are already really bad at effectively sharing the sidewalks as pedestrians. The three biggest categories here are tourists (this is probably the first time in their lives they've had the option of walking anywhere and it shows), phone zombies (just stop and send that text rather than walk oblivious to your surroundings at 1mph) and people who walk in groups and want to walk slowly 4 abreast. Oh and as with cyclists, the problem isn't the delivery people. They have an economic interest in getting where they're going safely and quickly. The only time I see them (on vehicles) on the sidewalks is when they're picking up or dropping off. It's all the shared bike and scooter people that are the problem. At least previously the only scooter riders had their own scooter and were thus far fewer in number. In other cities (eg Miami, even SF), the pedestrian density is far lower so it's less of a problem. Oh and of course people just dump the shared scooters in the middle of the sidewalk. Honestly, they're a menace. Here's a compromise: get rid of 1 lane of parking on each street and widen both sidewalks by the space saved. Then there might be room.
- ec109685 5y ago
  That is the style of the New Yorker. They throw some cartoons to break up the wall of text and go deeper into the personalities of who they covering (e.g. they built up suspense on which company was going to win the bid at the end). More to the point, the article discusses the strict geofencing scooter makers are putting in place to prevent sidewalk use and parking in a non-designated spot. In SF, for example, if you try to end your ride in the wrong spot, you can’t, and would keep racking up charges. Their scooters also contain electronic bike chains, so you have to actually lock the scooter to a rack to properly end it. Seemed to work okay and encouraged me to place it in the right spot. I agree dedicated lanes are the best way forward. Once you have that, go all in on scooters and other e-* technology and avoid the short cab / Uber rides completely.
alasano 5y ago
I love owning an electric scooter in a city in which no companies are allowed to rent them. All the upside of using it, none of the downside of people hating on them.
IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
Archived version of the article for those paywalled https://archive.is/pSC7V https://archive.is/pSC7V
decafninja 5y ago
The main problem I've experienced with bike shares (NYC Citibike) is that often enough, there are no bikes when you need them, and the docks are full when you need to dock them. This situation isn't frequent, but still common enough to be annoying. The biggest benefit of e-scooters (and e-skateboards for that matter) is that you can fold them and take them into buildings. You can't do that with a bicycle - ok you can with a folding bike, but if you need to lug them for more than a few minutes they're quite heavy and cumbersome.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Chicago's bikeshare has an app that shows how many bikes/spaces are available at each dock. There are docks every couple blocks, so you can easily plan the ride.
  - poopypoopington 5y ago
    New York's does too
adwi 5y ago
How many thousands of words and no mention of Revel? Vespa-like electric scooter company operating in NYC for the last few years. Solves a ton of problems: 1) faster snd operates in traffic (so less issue with their 25mph speed vs bikes, not operated on sidewalks so fewer peds to mow over, etc) 2) requires full-face helmet use and cursory safety training 3) street parks, and user is liable for tickets, which keeps them off the sidewalk and brings the city revenue 4) they’ve been good citizens, responsive to issues their riders cause 5) I don’t want to die from embarrassment being seen on one.
- walshemj 5y ago
  Might not work most places you need at least a partial Bike license and often for sensible commuting scooters >125 cc you need a full bike license. I mean a Vespa here and not those tiny wheel abominations
- brookside 5y ago
  I'm very glad Revel exists for scooter transport on demand (and really miss car2go for on-demand cars), however: 1. The Revel scooters feel somewhat sketchy to ride 2. Prices have crept up significantly. A 14 minute ride I just took was 10+ bucks, which isn't too much different than being chauffeured in an Uber/Lyft. I'd guess Revel is still operating at a loss, there is just less VC capital funding the rides now.
- nicwolff 5y ago
  Actually they're limited to 29 mph, which is fast enough to ride the green wave. And they require a DOT-approved helmet, but I don't see anything saying it has to be full-face – although the ones they supply are.
siriuz 5y ago
Coming from a rural area, with more-or-less long distances between shops - it is not only a device for cities! =)
- elkos 5y ago
  Isn't an e-bike a bit more practical for rural areas?
hardwaregeek 5y ago
One aspect that seems unacknowledged (maybe it is in the article, I haven't finished it) is weather. I bought an electric scooter and happily used it along with biking last summer. However the moment it turned cold in New York, scootering became significantly less appealing. My hands get really cold; snow, slush and ice increase danger and my friends were less likely to want to come with me. It's quite noticeable that the cities cited are all relatively warm places. I bet that as scooters expand to colder areas, they'll have a harder time with adoption. Edit: the article does acknowledge it! > If nothing else, the day would prove conclusively that scootering is not the best mode of travel in the dead of a New York winter. You can’t put your hands in your pockets while driving or lean into the wind. In a lot of ways, walking that last mile works better, and it’s free.
- ryukafalz 5y ago
  Can't speak to e-scooters in particular, but cold weather gets cited as a problem for bikes as well, so thought I'd bring this up: for bikes at least it's as much of a question of infrastructure priorities as it is the weather itself. Plenty of people bike in places with much colder weather than New York all the time: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU ...they just have safe paths to ride on, and those paths get maintained. (So: not a painted bike lane that all the snow gets shoveled into.)
  - hardwaregeek 5y ago
    That's true, but there's something to be said about culture. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life. Bikes in the US are recreational/occasionally professional. If people are inconvenienced, they just won't use it. Not to mention in New York, there's already significant risks that come with biking/scootering. You always always have to share the road for at least some part of the trip and are constantly at risk of car doors, pedestrians and ironically, really fast e-bikes. I know that during the summer the benefits outweigh the risks, at least during pandemic. During the winter with ice and snow? Hell no.
    - ryukafalz 5y ago
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.is/pSC7V https://archive.is/pSC7V
closeparen 5y ago
I was going to make a snarky comment about finally legalizing electric bikes before messing with scooters, but I see that this happened last year. https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycles-and-other-unregistered-vehicles https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycl...
xyzzy21 5y ago
Strictly already illegal in NYC.

43 points by kwindla 5y ago

"Loved" I hate the scooters. I do not live in SV. People ride them like jackasses and cause problems for both drivers and pedestrians.

beowulfey 5y ago

I was in Southern California and lived through the boom and bust of E-scooters. Personally, I am a huge fan, but there is a long list of pros and cons worth considering. Pros: * Fast to start up * Cheaper than uber * Doesn’t depend on stations, so way more convenient * No worry about keeping an eye on your scooter when you arrive; they were abundant enough that if yours gets taken you can grab another * Genuinely super fun Cons: * Ugly; an eyesore * Often in the way— a nightmare for accessibility * So many companies meant you needed 5 different apps * Vandalized/battery theft often an issue * Not good for carrying goods * Kinda dangerous, but then ones that topped out at 12 mph were less worth it * Creeping up in price towards the end to help profitability, which made them also less worth it The overall attitude was pretty split, but most of the people I know who disliked them had never ridden them. They really were INCREDIBLE for convenience. If your trip was 0.5-2 miles, they were amazing. I used them for running to shops, cafes, meeting at restaurants, etc. I think there is a right way to do it, and that way has to include the convenience of leaving them near your destination. Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) to get the general public to catch on. However, they also have to be managed way better than they were at first. Scooters were getting all types of people out of their cars, and they were good at it! Personally I really want the concept to stick around.

alisonatwork 5y ago
I can't speak for electric scooters, but bike sharing is one of the best inventions I have ever experienced, and it breaks my heart when people complain about it being ugly, or an eyesore, or dangerous. As you say, often these are either people who never used it, or they are people who already have access to alternative transport that they feel is somehow superior. It's such a self-centered attitude. Bike sharing democratizes the city, being cheap enough that even the poorest people can achieve transport independence. It should be a public service. The freedom that comes with being able to affordably pick up transport anywhere, and go anywhere, it's unparalleled in an urban context. All the dreams of self-driving cars, and in particular self-driving taxis, we already had that future and it was dockless bike share! I agree with you that there are still issues of transporting large objects, and difficulty catering to people with physical disabilities, but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good.
- hn8788 5y ago
  You don't have to use bike/scooter sharing to see that it's an eyesore, or that people frequently drive at unsafe speeds down sidewalks. That's no more self-centered than thinking that you should be able to drive a scooter down the middle of a sidewalk meant for foot traffic, then leave it sitting wherever you want so other people have to deal with it.
  - Swenrekcah 5y ago
    I love the scooters but I completely agree that they should never be ridden on sidewalks except as a short connection between other lanes. They belong on the road (<=30mph) and cycling infrastructure. Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved.
    - wott 5y ago
      > Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved. Not quite, when people say they use them for 0.5 mile rides.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        I must say I don't understand that. That's about a 15 minute walk. Even a mile doesn't seem like something a healthy person (which a person riding a scooter presumably is) really needs a transportation aid for.
        colinmhayes 5y ago
        People are incredibly lazy
        michael1999 5y ago
        Think about extending the range you can explore over lunch.
notatoad 5y ago
The only real downside to scooters is that our cities are completely designed around cars. Nobody complains about cars being in the way, messy, ugly, unsafe, or causing accessibility problems, but it's even more true of cars than it is of scooters. The quicker we can get our cities redesigned to meet the needs of all the people who need to get around, rather than just car drivers, the better. The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. The only way we are ever going to find the political will to adapt cities for non-car uses is if enough people use alternate transportation to make it worthwhile, and that's going to make things messy for a while. Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a lamppost or something that will take up half a small sidewalk. Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems to happen somewhat less often. On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me there are two main issues which made me stop using them: 1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from traffic have mainly cobblestones. 2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate or delicately manoeuvre around something. They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared bikes, so I much prefer the latter.
  - kapp_in_life 5y ago
    I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself. Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.
foolfoolz 5y ago
i agree a lot. most complainers had never used it. most users were happy with it there’s a stigma to just riding a scooter. it’s not cool. during the rent a scooter craze the lamest thing you could do was buy your own scooter for $500. i don’t know why but they have to get over that barrier before people will accept it without using it. bikes appear to have crossed that barrier, sometimes
- vmception 5y ago
  why are you and the grandparent poster talking in past tense southern california still has a lot of scooters and it is a bit more organized than it was in the past but not remarkably different, people still buy their own scooters and the major e-scooter providers have plans for you to buy your own dedicated scooter of their brand, this article is also talking in the present tense and referring to existing californian markets too
  - beowulfey 5y ago
    Haha, I was talking in past tense because I sadly moved away; when I left there had been a temporary ban in place and wasn't sure if they were back yet.
- leoedin 5y ago
  Privately owned escooters in London are everywhere, and mostly ridden by local teenagers and young adults. I don't think they suffer from being uncool. Possibly because they're technically illegal - so owning one is a rebellious act.
toxik 5y ago
E-scooters are an absolute plague in the city I live in. They are typically operated by inexperienced drivers, very often on sidewalks. 12 mph is enough to kill old people. They should be banned, there is no question.
xeromal 5y ago
Your 4th con was the one that always got me. These rental programs don't work when meth heads frequently throw them into the ocean, middle of the street, or in water fountains.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Extra con for the ones I tried in San Francisco: The slightest hill would make them crap out.
- wittekm 5y ago
  Agreed - the common rental ones really have no power. I think Lime and its ilk are usually in the 300w range. I bought my own scooter on a whim; it can toggle between 500w and 1000w of power, and I rarely need the 1000w except for the craziest Seattle hills. Basically what I'm trying to say here is: totally solvable problem, just comes down to the unit cost of the rental scooters
sneak 5y ago
Scooters without a helmet (their normal and usual use case) are way more than "kinda" dangerous. I don't think the fact that these are extremely dangerous to their rider is a reason to ban them, though. Let fools fuck themselves up on these death traps if they like. The danger to uninvolved pedestrians is a great reason to ban them from sidewalk use, however. There is no justification for vehicle use on the sidewalk.
scrollaway 5y ago
Here in Brussels, e-scooters are a serious plague. They are so often left in the middle of sidewalks, and they are super heavy so moving them out of the way is very annoying. Plus they start beeping like crazy. I was on roller skates a while back, someone left a scooter in the middle of the park. I picked it up to move it, it started beeping, startled me, i fell and it fell on my hand. Took me five weeks to heal. More bike sharing please. People tend to leave the bikes in appropriate spots. I agree the station-based bikes are awful (we have Villo here which is ridiculously bad). But JUMP and our local alternative Billy are cheaper and better ways to get through the city. Plus those scooters fail hard on cobblestone. It took Lime almost two years to realize their scooters were not appropriate for half the city, and to replace them with a beefier model.
dalbasal 5y ago
George Hotz (of all people) had a great take on e-scooter as a business model. If the startup/company puts up all the capital, has marginal costs and competition, there is never any potential for "takeoff." Impossible trifecta. That's why he thinks waymo is doomed. Uber showed that even a handful of competitors can discipline prices enough to make profiting hard. uber can at least scale without buying cars, but competition means tight margins. It's ironic that SV-Startup world accidentally created a Perfectly Normal Business Sector and found it bemusing. It's emblemagic of current private sector conundrums. Inasmuch as price competition exists, the value of the S&P 500 approaches zero. That's chalkboard extremism, obviously... OTOH, while "Monopoly Requirement" is too strong a descriptor but "moat" is not strong enough. The other cons (ugly/dangerous/etc.) are emblematic of current public sector conundrums. To scale scooters/biking, we need a proficient public sector. Regulation for basic safety that isn't regulating to death, or regulating badly. Also, how are we an advanced global civilization but can't adapt our cityscapes any better than literal iron age brutes. As we advance in some fields, the fields that do not advance become blatant. Our forebears dug canals with sticks, and often did a very impressive job. We can't 100X digging with sticks?
- paxys 5y ago
  What killed e-scooters was regulation, not competition.
  - bsder 5y ago
    What killed e-scooters is the fact that they are never where you need them and they are always in all the places that are annoying. If I'm hitting the grocery store, I need a scooter near my house. The problem is that this isn't a volume point, so nobody puts more than one at a convenient point and its always gone. Once I get to the grocery store, I need one to come home. This IS a volume point, but quite a few people walk to the store and then ride home. This drains the volume point so I can't count on having one when I need it. However, I will be tripping over scooters generally at the halfway point (there's a very popular hipster coffee shop) when I walk to that grocery store--a point where the cost isn't worth it anymore so now the scooters just piss me off. The problem to be solved wasn't scooters--it was roads. We need dedicated low-speed infrastructure--walking, biking, scootering, whatever, that doesn't allow cars. However, fixing that is slow, not profitable for just you, and requires that you move the political apparatus.
seppin 5y ago
Every local ER will see a spike of injuries related to accidents too
schrodinger 5y ago
> Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) I’m not sure this is true everywhere. CitiBike is so dense in NYC that you can almost always walk about 3 blocks and see a station.
- beowulfey 5y ago
  That's actually great to hear -- I haven't biked NYC yet, but definitely having enough stations would fix that problem!
Rebelgecko 5y ago
Unfortunately after the initial honeymoon period it seems like the scooter companies have jacked up their prices. Uber costs about 50% more per minute than Bird. However most trips Uber will require fewer minutes. Last time I flew, I thought it'd be fun to take a scooter home from the airport. I would've had to walk about a mile to the nearest scooter which based on my experience with Bird would have maybe a one in three chance of being broken. I ended up getting an Uber for $6. I guesstimated that the scooter rental (assuming nothing went wrong) would've been around $8 That said, when the prices were lower and the density was high enough that you could count on one being nearby, they were a fun way to get around

RandallBrown 5y ago

I love the idea of electric scooter (and bike) sharing but in practice it just doesn't work. Link scooters just started showing up in Seattle and I decided to take one a couple miles to meet up with a friend for dinner. It would have been faster to walk there. After bout 6 or 7 minutes of riding and only making it half a mile (and one harrowing experience with a yellow light), I stopped at a Jump bike. I opened the Uber app to book it and couldn't figure out how so I opened the Jump app. I wasn't signed in and my Uber password wasn't stored in my password manager so I had to reset my password. After doing that I finally made it into the Jump app only to have a single button that says "Launch Uber" and I was back to where I started. Of course I now had to sign in to the Uber app again since I just reset my password. I still couldn't figure out how to book the thing so I just called a Lyft and finally made it to the restaurant. (I did finally figure out how to book it once I was in the car. I think my problem was that maybe the bike I was standing near wasn't showing up on the map.) It was a bit of a comedy of errors last night but all my other experiences with electric scooters have been pretty inconvenient.

cinntaile 5y ago
Here you open up the app, scan the QR code and you're good to go. This is pretty much a solved problem but yes if you're logged out it can get time consuming. The problem, to me at least, is that they're quite expensive to use. I get why. Servicing them is expensive, the scooters often get vandalized and people don't take care of them.
recuter 5y ago
They demoed using an NFC qr-code type sticker thingy a year and a half ago: https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-electric-scooter-rent-nfc-tag https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-e... It's supposed to be one tap with no app installed when you walk up to one.
leoedin 5y ago
That's not a problem with scooter and bike sharing, but with that specific app. I've used a whole range of bike and scooter systems, some docked and some dockless, and mostly the apps worked fine. Scan a QR code, unlock and off you go. It can definitely work seamlessly.

cletus 5y ago

Holy crap, that's a lot of words. I'm pretty sure judicious editing could've halved the length of that. Speaking as someone who lived in NYC for 10 years I am absolutely against the scooters that plague other cities coming to NYC. Why? Several reasons: 1. There are too many people on the sidewalks. At least cyclists almost always ride on the road. In my experience, amateur scooter riders think it's fine to ride an electrified vehicle (often poorly) on the sidewalk. It's not; 2. The sidewalks are too narrow already in most places. This is exacerbated by all the permits given for various news stands, outdoor seating and whatnot that create a ton of choke points on the sidewalks as is; 3. People are already really bad at effectively sharing the sidewalks as pedestrians. The three biggest categories here are tourists (this is probably the first time in their lives they've had the option of walking anywhere and it shows), phone zombies (just stop and send that text rather than walk oblivious to your surroundings at 1mph) and people who walk in groups and want to walk slowly 4 abreast. Oh and as with cyclists, the problem isn't the delivery people. They have an economic interest in getting where they're going safely and quickly. The only time I see them (on vehicles) on the sidewalks is when they're picking up or dropping off. It's all the shared bike and scooter people that are the problem. At least previously the only scooter riders had their own scooter and were thus far fewer in number. In other cities (eg Miami, even SF), the pedestrian density is far lower so it's less of a problem. Oh and of course people just dump the shared scooters in the middle of the sidewalk. Honestly, they're a menace. Here's a compromise: get rid of 1 lane of parking on each street and widen both sidewalks by the space saved. Then there might be room.

ec109685 5y ago
That is the style of the New Yorker. They throw some cartoons to break up the wall of text and go deeper into the personalities of who they covering (e.g. they built up suspense on which company was going to win the bid at the end). More to the point, the article discusses the strict geofencing scooter makers are putting in place to prevent sidewalk use and parking in a non-designated spot. In SF, for example, if you try to end your ride in the wrong spot, you can’t, and would keep racking up charges. Their scooters also contain electronic bike chains, so you have to actually lock the scooter to a rack to properly end it. Seemed to work okay and encouraged me to place it in the right spot. I agree dedicated lanes are the best way forward. Once you have that, go all in on scooters and other e-* technology and avoid the short cab / Uber rides completely.

alasano 5y ago

I love owning an electric scooter in a city in which no companies are allowed to rent them. All the upside of using it, none of the downside of people hating on them.

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago

Archived version of the article for those paywalled https://archive.is/pSC7V https://archive.is/pSC7V

decafninja 5y ago

The main problem I've experienced with bike shares (NYC Citibike) is that often enough, there are no bikes when you need them, and the docks are full when you need to dock them. This situation isn't frequent, but still common enough to be annoying. The biggest benefit of e-scooters (and e-skateboards for that matter) is that you can fold them and take them into buildings. You can't do that with a bicycle - ok you can with a folding bike, but if you need to lug them for more than a few minutes they're quite heavy and cumbersome.

colinmhayes 5y ago
Chicago's bikeshare has an app that shows how many bikes/spaces are available at each dock. There are docks every couple blocks, so you can easily plan the ride.
- poopypoopington 5y ago
  New York's does too

adwi 5y ago

How many thousands of words and no mention of Revel? Vespa-like electric scooter company operating in NYC for the last few years. Solves a ton of problems: 1) faster snd operates in traffic (so less issue with their 25mph speed vs bikes, not operated on sidewalks so fewer peds to mow over, etc) 2) requires full-face helmet use and cursory safety training 3) street parks, and user is liable for tickets, which keeps them off the sidewalk and brings the city revenue 4) they’ve been good citizens, responsive to issues their riders cause 5) I don’t want to die from embarrassment being seen on one.

walshemj 5y ago
Might not work most places you need at least a partial Bike license and often for sensible commuting scooters >125 cc you need a full bike license. I mean a Vespa here and not those tiny wheel abominations
brookside 5y ago
I'm very glad Revel exists for scooter transport on demand (and really miss car2go for on-demand cars), however: 1. The Revel scooters feel somewhat sketchy to ride 2. Prices have crept up significantly. A 14 minute ride I just took was 10+ bucks, which isn't too much different than being chauffeured in an Uber/Lyft. I'd guess Revel is still operating at a loss, there is just less VC capital funding the rides now.
nicwolff 5y ago
Actually they're limited to 29 mph, which is fast enough to ride the green wave. And they require a DOT-approved helmet, but I don't see anything saying it has to be full-face – although the ones they supply are.

siriuz 5y ago

Coming from a rural area, with more-or-less long distances between shops - it is not only a device for cities! =)

elkos 5y ago
Isn't an e-bike a bit more practical for rural areas?

hardwaregeek 5y ago

One aspect that seems unacknowledged (maybe it is in the article, I haven't finished it) is weather. I bought an electric scooter and happily used it along with biking last summer. However the moment it turned cold in New York, scootering became significantly less appealing. My hands get really cold; snow, slush and ice increase danger and my friends were less likely to want to come with me. It's quite noticeable that the cities cited are all relatively warm places. I bet that as scooters expand to colder areas, they'll have a harder time with adoption. Edit: the article does acknowledge it! > If nothing else, the day would prove conclusively that scootering is not the best mode of travel in the dead of a New York winter. You can’t put your hands in your pockets while driving or lean into the wind. In a lot of ways, walking that last mile works better, and it’s free.

ryukafalz 5y ago
Can't speak to e-scooters in particular, but cold weather gets cited as a problem for bikes as well, so thought I'd bring this up: for bikes at least it's as much of a question of infrastructure priorities as it is the weather itself. Plenty of people bike in places with much colder weather than New York all the time: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU ...they just have safe paths to ride on, and those paths get maintained. (So: not a painted bike lane that all the snow gets shoveled into.)
- hardwaregeek 5y ago
  That's true, but there's something to be said about culture. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life. Bikes in the US are recreational/occasionally professional. If people are inconvenienced, they just won't use it. Not to mention in New York, there's already significant risks that come with biking/scootering. You always always have to share the road for at least some part of the trip and are constantly at risk of car doors, pedestrians and ironically, really fast e-bikes. I know that during the summer the benefits outweigh the risks, at least during pandemic. During the winter with ice and snow? Hell no.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.is/pSC7V https://archive.is/pSC7V

closeparen 5y ago

I was going to make a snarky comment about finally legalizing electric bikes before messing with scooters, but I see that this happened last year. https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycles-and-other-unregistered-vehicles https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycl...

xyzzy21 5y ago

Strictly already illegal in NYC.