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The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

277 points by tomohawk 6y ago

Gimpei 6y ago
My family is Assyrian and was living in a region of Iran that was at the time still part of the Ottoman empire. During the genocide, the Kurdish proxies of the regime came into my grandmother's village, murdered all the men, and raped the women before deporting them. My grandmother walked 600 miles to the Persian gulf, during which time she had a miscarriage from the rape. About two-thirds of the Assyrian population was wiped out during the genocide. So it's nice to see it being recognized. Would be nice if we got a little mention in the name though.
- belatw 6y ago
  During the population exchange My mother in law’s Turkish family were forced to walk to Istanbul from their village in Makedonya with nothing but the gold coins they had sewn into their blankets and hid into their shoes. 1/4 of them were killed by Greeks. The same story with my father in law coming from northern Bulgaria. Nobody brings this up, because it was Christians killing Muslims. Still the Armenians remained and thrived in Western Türkiye. My neighborhood in Besiktas is 1/3 Armenian and 1/3 Kurd to this day.
  - alehander42 6y ago
    Can you tell me more about macedonia/bulgarian turks stories: I am a bulgarian and I want to see how the truth, and to see how turkish history sees the events
  - Gimpei 6y ago
    I think that's fair. There were definitely purges of Turkish and other European Muslims at the time, and they should be acknowledged. On a related note, I have a friend who is Serbian and he claims there were Bosnian atrocities against Serbs during the civil war that nobody hears about. Still, I would point out that, just as in the Bosnian war, the scale of atrocities was a lot worse on the side that is more remembered. Over a million Armenians and other minorities were systematically raped, murdered, and purged at the behest of Ottoman authorities. It's unclear to me why Turkey does not want to acknowledge this. You can still appreciate your country while recognizing that people in the past did some pretty bad things. The world is a complicated place.
chmod775 6y ago
It's a good overview, but not what I'd expect when the title reads "In Depth"
ismaildonmez 6y ago
As a guy born in Turkey I’m happy that this is finally getting the recognition it deserves. On the other hand, finding any neutral resource about the First World War in Turkey is hard to come by. The best resource I’ve found so far is written by a German General called Otto Liman von Sanders, he wrote a book called “Five Years in Turkey” [0] talking about 1913 - 1918. It at least has some parts on the events which will end up in the Armenian Genocide and the hate against Greece and Greeks. Sorry to digress but it’s important to mention that, the hate against Greeks will take an ugly turn in 1955 [1] [0] https://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Turkey-Liman-Sanders/dp/184574215X https://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Turkey-Liman-Sanders/dp/18... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom It seems the downvote army has arrived. Take note my troll friends: You can’t hide the truth, it will come out. Do not take part in enabling people who cause human suffering.
- throwaway_isms 6y ago
  >Sorry to digress but it’s important to mention that, the hate against Greeks will take an ugly turn in 1955 Almost no one is aware there has been constant armed conflict between the Greeks and Turks in Cypress for over 100 years on ethnic grounds. This includes genocide, terrorism, massacres, kidnappings, executions, and mass graves
  - kyriakos 6y ago
    *Cyprus
- FiatLuxDave 6y ago
  I don't know if you would take this as a neutral resource, but if you are interested in this subject, you may find the writings of Henry Morgenthau Sr. interesting. He was the U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire during the period when the USA was neutral in WWI. He also happened to be a friend of my great-grandfather. In particular I would recommend "I was sent to Athens" (link: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6734490M/I_was_sent_to_Athens https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6734490M/I_was_sent_to_Athen...) and the section on the 1922 Izmir Fire.
- 6y ago
grahamjpark 6y ago
Interestingly this is the second article I’ve seen today about Armenia: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/24/armenia-azerbaijan-war-nagorno-karabakh-aftermath/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/24/armenia-azerbaijan-war-...
- deleted 6y ago
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- docdeek 6y ago
  It is (at least in France) Armenian Genocide Rememberence Day. It could be a reason there are a few different Armenian stories out there.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    Does France have a "Rememberence" day for this too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Rif_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapon...
    - enriquto 6y ago
      Unfortunately, not. And neither Spain does, which is a shame. What is the point of your question?
      - 29athrowaway 6y ago
        France is always pontificating about "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and all that kumbaya stuff (which are great ideas, btw), but in practice, some of what they've done in their colonies and their behavior in conflicts is questionable af. I went to an Argelian restaurant some time ago, and the guy there told me that historically, French soldiers demanded that Argelian women have sex with them, and if they refused they would cut their faces. "Liberté, égalité, fraternité".
        enriquto 6y ago
sorokod 6y ago
Turkey has consistently rejected the "label" of genocide[1] See also Armenian Genocide denial [2] [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/30/shameful-turkey-rejects-us-resolution-on-armenian-genocide/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/30/shameful-turkey-re... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial
nickik 6y ago
For those interested, Ronald G. Suny is an Armenian born in the US who has written on the genocide and its a much better if you are looking for 'In Depth' information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9bBn3fqYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9bBn3fqYs
apostacy 6y ago
Since Facebook has agreed to implement censorship on behalf of the Turkish government[1], how long is it until discussion of the Armenian genocide is flagged as hate speech and fake news? As far as Turkey is concerned, this is fake news. And big tech has agreed to defer to Turkey. [1]: https://www.engadget.com/facebook-turkey-emails-200407588.html https://www.engadget.com/facebook-turkey-emails-200407588.ht...
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > how long is it until discussion of the Armenian genocide is flagged as hate speech and fake news? Genocide can be talked about on Facebook, you can even organise it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...
  - apostacy 6y ago
    I think your links prove my point: Facebook only cares about appeasing the powerful. Whether it is facilitating genocide or covering up genocide, they are the same. If it benefited Facebook, they would just as well deplatform people trying to expose a genocide in Myanmar. And if the Turkish government tried organizing another genocide, I'm sure Facebook would platform it, and censor any opposition to it. Why wouldn't they? They've already committed to deplatforming critics of the Erdoğan. Do you think that Facebook would take a principled stand and suddenly choose not to take orders from the Turkish government, and risk losing that market? I don't see that happening.
    - lostlogin 6y ago
      Your view is very cynical and I agree with you.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Likely it can be removed internally at the behest of the government, I doubt if they will ever censor it in other countries. That should answer your question.
tehwebguy 6y ago
As someone with an Armenian dad and last name, I’ve felt some interest in this story and my country’s (US) refusal so far to acknowledge it since learning about it. It’s pretty far removed from me, and I’d probably not live here if my ancestors hadn’t fled the Turks back in the day, but it’s also very sad to see that it’s used as a political token over and over again. Obama promised that he’d be the first sitting president to acknowledge it, but then didn’t. I don’t know if Trump promised to acknowledge it but he didn’t and his admin even rejected a specific opportunity to do so. Now Biden is dangling it, either as a way to buy points with Armenian Americans (heh not likely, he’s got CA and doesn’t need to further lock in the Glendale vote) or more likely to push Erdogan to do what he wants. My guess is he doesn’t acknowledge it. It’s really a bummer overall — it’s not like anyone in Turkey today had any part in it unless they are like 120 years old but Erdogan is in many ways basically a dictator that just hasn’t worn out his welcome with the rest of the world, I think largely because of geography and his not so thinly veiled threats re: immigration.
- ismaildonmez 6y ago
  Erdoğan thinks himself as the last Ottoman Emperor standing (c.f. The Third Reich), that’s why no way in hell he’ll accept any atrocities that Ottomans committed.
  - apostacy 6y ago
    Facebook has shown themselves completely willing to remove content at the request of the Erdoğan government. If they deplatform critics of Erdoğan, why would they also not be willing to deplatform anything else that Erdoğan does not like, like discussion of the Armenian Genocide? And maybe this is why we should consider the consequences of encouraging deplatforming of people we don't like. My other comment pointing out collusion of Facebook and the Turkish government is heavily downvoted, and I am not sure why. If I am mistaken, please someone let me know. [1]: https://www.propublica.org/article/sheryl-sandberg-and-top-facebook-execs-silenced-an-enemy-of-turkey-to-prevent-a-hit-to-their-business https://www.propublica.org/article/sheryl-sandberg-and-top-f...
    - 6y ago
m00dy 6y ago
Why dont we let historians investigate this instead of politicians?
- bediger4000 6y ago
  Because modern-day Turkey has turned the whole thing into a political issue. Turkey cannot accept the historical truth.
  - m00dy 6y ago
    Turkey is the one that offered this solution
    - thopat 6y ago
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- 6y ago
Leary 6y ago
Interesting article, however I couldn't find primary Turkish sources that detailed the reasoning behind the deportations. Did the Turks institute the policy to remove Armenians from within Turkey or to exterminate them?
- diminish 6y ago
  Sadly Armenian terrorist organization Tashnak has killed millions of Turks in France/Russia imperial army uniforms before their migration and Armenian terrorist organization ASALA recently killed a dozen diplomats in western cities and Armenian state and militia has killed 100s of thousands in Azerbaijan literally occupying the country. The whole genocide agenda is somewhat to hide that sad truth. Recent killings are easy to document. Unfortunately most editors are heavily manipulated by the fanatical Armenian diaspora. Search for "Khojaly massacre", "Asala killings of Turkish consulates" and civilian airport bombings in Paris and Ankara by the Armenian terrorist organization. Backwards read how Russian imperial and French armies armed Tasknak to kill Turks. Edit: My grand-grandma sadly was burned in an owen in a village by Armenian forces in in 1910s. Someone should also understand there are 2 sides of any story. I'm sad for any casualty in 1st WW. But please allow to also feel for Turkish losses.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Do you have any sources you can share? I found the wiki page for ARF (I think the same thing as Tashnak) and I don't see anything about killing millions of Turks. To be honest I'm a bit skeptical
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  - luckylion 6y ago
    Well, let's see whether this genocide denying nonsense is allowed to stay up. I have a feeling that somebody denying the holocaust in such a shamefully obvious way would be booted off the site. I hope that dang is dealing with this the same way.
daneel_w 6y ago
Striking how much downvoting on comments with links to more facts about the genocide is going on here. Striking, but not the least surprising...
- lostlogin 6y ago
  Yes. Something/someone is hitting very benign comments hard, you can watch comments get obliterated.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    These "political" HN threads are often best read starting from the bottom of the page.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I don't if the troll farms and download brigades are limited to China/NK/Russia. There are plenty of mercenaries out there that you can hire.
  - daneel_w 6y ago
    It takes quite a bit of legitimate activity on HN before your account becomes eligible for downvoting other users' comments. I'd say the downvoting drones are regular Turkish HN users who simply side with Erdogan's policies on the topic and considers censorship an acceptable political tool.
belatw 6y ago
Yawn. The ottomans have been gone for 100 years. Most Turks acknowledge this. The Turkish Republic had NOTHING to do with this. Japan needs to acknowledge their genocide in China. UK needs to acknowledge their many genocides in Ireland, India and all of the colonies. France needs to acknowledge their genocides in their colonies and especially Algeria. Scotland needs to acknowledge their tobacco slavery trade. All of Europe and Russia needs to acknowleege their hundreds of years of continued abuse, atrocities and oppression of against the Romani. Russia needs to acknowledge all of its Soviet abuses. Germany needs to acknowledge the sheer unimaginable abject horror of their genocide in the Soviet Union. China nerds to acknowledge it’s genocide in Xinjiang USA needs to acknowledge its genocide against Native Americans.. And it’s atrocities in the middle-east. Saudi Arabia needs to acknowledge their genocide in Yemen. Frankly Germany is the only nation which has ever acknowledged and apologized for its atrocities, but only against the Jews, not the other European victims of the third reich. Biden is just trying to win points with conservative Christians by stirring up anti muslim rhetoric, like evey president.
bmmayer1 6y ago
In college I took a class on Turkish / Ottoman history that was incredible, except for when we covered the genocide. The professor clearly had been thoroughly educated on the subject, but had internalized a very different understanding of the sequence of events, and of course never called it a genocide. What I took away from that class was how ingrained the official Turkish version of events is in the historiography and how even experts in history of that reason don't believe, or want to believe, that a genocide took place.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > In college I took a class on Turkish / Ottoman history that was incredible, except for when we covered the genocide. The professor clearly had been thoroughly educated on the subject, but had internalized a very different understanding of the sequence of events, and of course never called it a genocide. What I took away from that class was how ingrained the official Turkish version of events is in the historiography and how even experts in history of that reason don't believe, or want to believe, that a genocide took place. How had the professor been educated, and what was their perspective? Were they Turkish? (A bare sequence of questions can seem confrontational, so let me be clear that I don't mean that—I'm just curious about what the teaching looks like from the "different understanding" point of view.)
lupire 6y ago
Can someone explain the Young Turks YouTube channel? Isn't that like calling yourself The National Socialists?
throwaway2048 6y ago
Its good to see HN can have nice, civil discussions about things like "Did a historically documented genocide actually occur"
HappyDreamer 6y ago
This hate is a bit present, still today. In Stockholm, Sweden, 5 years ago: "Death to the Armenian dogs", said B. Leylani, who was, back then, the vice president of the Turkish National Association of Sweden. The spectators (Turkish extremists?) were cheering. Later he had to resign (there are also, of course, kind and reasonable people in that organization, who don't want any more genocides, and I presume they didn't like what he said). Apparently when the genocidal state, the Ottoman Empire, doesn't get defeated in a war (like happened to the nazis), and doesn't get removed / put in prison, then the genocidal ideas can a bit live on and be somewhat strong, 100 years later. I'm not saying that people in Turkey would be like that. Angry extremists are always few, in comparison to the many more people who are silent, right. I have friends who are Turkish (they don't like Erdagon b.t.w.). In the Swedish news: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/starka-reaktioner-efter-tal-om-armeniska-hundar https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/starka-reaktioner-efter-t... A video recording: https://www.facebook.com/The-state-of-Turkey-uncensored-1502230130096376/videos/barbaros-leylani-death-to-the-armenian-dogsa-leader-of-a-prominent-turkish-assoc/1725251411127579/ https://www.facebook.com/The-state-of-Turkey-uncensored-1502... "Annihilate" is another word he was using.
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- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "Angry extremists are always few" But they are often supported by large portions of the general population, such as widespread support of the Nazi regime among ordinary Germans, widespread support of the Soviet totalitarian regime by their citizens (millions of which were murdered by the same regime), widespread support of Mao's Cultural Revolution, of Pol Pot, of countless civil wars (and just plain wars) all over the globe and throughout time. Humans have not proven to be a very peaceful species, and it doesn't take much for them to lunge for each other's throats.
- bjourne 6y ago
  You'll find the same sentiments among Russians, Moroccans, Israelis, Japanese, Serbians... The Germans may be almost unique in that they took full responsibility for the crimes their state committed.
andrewvc 6y ago
My ancestors were murdered both during the Genocide in Anatolia, and in the violence in the years immediately following. I’m also half Jewish. I count both Germans and Turks as friends, but while I have mostly positive opinions of the modern German state, and have gladly visited the country, I can’t say the same for Turkey. The denial of my family’s history is an open wound. The stories are painful, and the legacy of that pain affects my family even today. My grandparents saw their family members and community murdered and had to rebuild their lives abroad. My grandmother, toward the end of her life, would weep, recounting the violence she endured, reliving the experience in her decline. These scars can persist across generations. There are two excellent books I can recommend: 1. Black Dog of Fate, by Peter Balakian 2. They Can Live in the Desert, but Nowhere Else, by Ronald Grigor Suny The first is more of a first person narrative describing the lingering effects of the genocide across generations in the Balakian family, very poetic. It’s a great read, full of life, and poignant in its portrayal of inter-generational pain. The second is a straight history by a historian, tracing the events, causes, people, etc. It’s a dense, but good read.
zero_deg_kevin 6y ago
The downvoting in this thread is insane. Do the mods have tools to determine if there are state actors trying to manipulate conversation on HN?
- andrewvc 6y ago
  There are clearly disingenuous comments from genocide denying trolls throughout this thread. I’m not surprised to see downvotes as well.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    Hi, I'm one of these genocide denying trolls. Let me tell you a story. In 1915, my father's family was living in Erzurum. While the men of the house were leaving for the mosque after the law passed, they warned the woman at home about not opening the door for whatever reason. Their neighbors were Armenians for 40+ years and my father's family were their landlords. They never had anything unpleasant, but they wanted to be cautious nevertheless. After they left, their neighbors came to say farewell. They opened the door. They killed everyone at home. Then the Armenians went to the mosque, killed all men there. Then burned the mosque down. We recall this incident as war times, shit happens and never make a big issue of it. I personally had Armenian friends (we've grown apart, just life happened, nothing else). I never had any problems with them, and never will, but this "you planned and executed an ethnic cleansing" stuff is one-sided. It was war, it was ugly. There are other factors at play, but I don't want to dig deeper. It's a big ugly hole which burnt everyone, and as a planet we should leave this ugly thing behind, because it became a political weapon of sorts. We can discuss if everyone leaves the hate aside and talk over it. Unless that time comes, this is my only comment on that issue. Also, I want to re-iterate that I don't hate any human being just because they've born under a certain flag, and I don't want revenge or anything. I just want to be able talk about this without being labeled this and that. Have a nice day. Edit: Downvoting won't bring my family back, thanks.
    - alehander42 6y ago
      That's extremely sad and it is truth that we, people, are doing horrible things to each other for a long time. I hope you find comfort (and I hope God blesses us with the wisdom to fight against our own internal passions). This shouldn't be about "this nation is bad, this nation is good". (saying it as a bulgarian, we also had complicated history with the Ottomans, but I think we can say we live peacefully with the ordinary turk people) However, this doesn't mean we can't talk about genocides/massacres: germans can witness about many soviet atrocities, but they don't have the nerve to deny the Holocaust in the same time. We should seek the truth in both directions.
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anonu 6y ago
The story here is an age-old struggle of East vs West, and more specifically of Christianity vs Islam. The parallels with the past, centuries before the Genocide, and the present, are clear. This is a battle that will continue. I support the US's long overdue stance on the matter. It is important to remember what it symbolizes. I wished we lived in a kinder, gentler world. But we have atrocities occurring all over the globe, even in 2021. The US should standup for marginalized people, wherever they are.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Which Christians? Catholics? Protestants? Which Islam? Sunni? Shia? That seems like an oversimplification. Then, the US is a country where only a few decades ago eugenics was legal and interracial marriage was illegal. And not so long ago 50% of the country was willing to vote for an openly racist guy.
  - anonu 6y ago
    I would suggest reading the article linked. It is pretty good and thorough and answers your questions.
- waihtis 6y ago
  One would think some lessons of naive interventionism had been learned by now, especially since you guys just announced a pull out of Afghanistan a week ago, which many could argue was not a successful one.
scythe 6y ago
It's interesting how some genocides become more politically charged than others. Japan has trouble acknowledging their genocides, but they rarely complain when other countries do. America is generally similar. Germany has conducted a massive campaign to root out genocidal sympathies. But it's particularly surprising with Turkey, because, unlike Japan or the US, the Republic of Turkey replaced the Ottoman Empire by a violent revolution. They have more of an excuse than most countries to claim they are not the direct political descendants of the genocidaires. So it seems reasonable to infer that Turkey's rationale for denying the Armenian genocide is not to save face, but rather is rooted in resentment for what Turks see as a long campaign by France and England to weaken them and constrain their influence in the Mediterranean. Turks point to the discrepancies in how we see Christian genocides of Muslims in the Balkans and the Caucasus vs the reverse in Anatolia. For example, nobody mentions the Circassian genocide 40 years earlier, even though it occurred on a similar scale. The original version of the Treaty of Sèvres, which cut Anatolia into pieces, is a particularly sore point.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Your premise is incorrect though. The Ottoman Empire was not directly responsible for the genocide - the Sultan didn't give orders one fine day in WW1 to massacre all Armenians. But the Turkish military men who eventually went on to depose the powerless Sultan and form the modern-day Republic of Turkey were the ones who instigated the genocide, including Ataturk himself. So yeah, the modern Republic of Turkey has every reason to fight against all allegations of genocide, even though it was an integral element in its independence movement.
  - scythe 6y ago
    The general consensus seems to be that the genocide was ordered by the Three Pashas, especially Talaat Pasha, who were the de facto rulers at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 None of them survived to see the end of the Turkish Revolution. Ataturk was a mere lieutenant colonel at the outbreak of WWI and did not reach the Caucasus theatre until January 1916, eight months after the outbreak of genocide -- he went on to win a few crucial battles and was then shipped to the Levant. However, Turkey did go on to deny their crimes and venerate Talaat Pasha, who played some role in the development of modern Turkish institutions. Kieser, who is likely the source of your claims, does not implicate Ataturk directly, but does emphasize the influence of Talaat on modern Turkey: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR9 https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=... but see also the counterpoint: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1613829 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1...
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alehander42 6y ago
why is this on 3rd page now
- hans1729 6y ago
  Without going into conspiracy-mode: If you were a state and wanted to surpress certain narratives that negatively leverage your international standing, wouldn't you at the very least have google alerts regarding these topics? The non-techsavy public has learned how much impact relatively cheap bot-networks etc have in 2016. States do hire PR-agencies (also, read up on the direct relationship between "PR" and "Propaganda", they are the same thing), and PR agencies do this thing for a living, just usually its instagram, not HN. Would be super interesting to know how HN tries to combat malicious voting though, especially since downvoting requires a karma-threshhold of 500 or something.
- ghostDancer 6y ago
  That's how HN works, if something looks like is going to get a big non technical heated discussion and probably attract downvoting trolls and teams , it disappears from the first page to calm down the waters. That way it doesn't need too much moderation and is better to hide and HN can continue preoccupied by other things like taxes and some new technology that is going to revolutionize the web.
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yodafx 6y ago
People seem shocked when people deny genocides that happened more than 100 years ago when we have ongoing genocides in the very PRESENT that are being denied although we have undeniable evidence in high quality footage. It's also quite bizarre when some, rightly so, demand Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but don't have much to say about Turkey's refusal (among other nations which somewhat economically depend on China) to acknowledge China's genocide of the Uyghurs or God forbid Israel's genocide of the Palestinians. Anyone who denies one genocide loses any credibility and right to ask others to acknowledge their 'favorite' genocide they like to mention when it suits their interests. Most of the time the defense will be based upon a false understanding of what really constitutes "genocide". "B-But the population numbers are increasing" - Which might or might not be true, but that's besides the point: "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups." - Lemkin
trw998 6y ago
I'm not really shocked when people deny genocides that happened more than 100 years ago when we have ongoing genocides in the very PRESENT that are being denied although we have undeniable evidence in high quality footage. It's also quite bizarre when some, rightly so, demand Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but don't have much to say about Turkey's refusal (among other nations which somewhat economically depend on China) to acknowledge China's genocide of the Uyghurs or God forbid Israel's genocide of the Palestinians. Anyone who denies one genocide loses any credibility and right to ask others to acknowledge their 'favorite' genocide they like to mention when it suits their interests. Most of the time the defense will be based upon a false understanding of what really constitutes "genocide". "B-But the population numbers are increasing" - Which might or might not be true, but that's besides the point: "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups." - Lemkin

277 points by tomohawk 6y ago

My family is Assyrian and was living in a region of Iran that was at the time still part of the Ottoman empire. During the genocide, the Kurdish proxies of the regime came into my grandmother's village, murdered all the men, and raped the women before deporting them. My grandmother walked 600 miles to the Persian gulf, during which time she had a miscarriage from the rape. About two-thirds of the Assyrian population was wiped out during the genocide. So it's nice to see it being recognized. Would be nice if we got a little mention in the name though.

belatw 6y ago
During the population exchange My mother in law’s Turkish family were forced to walk to Istanbul from their village in Makedonya with nothing but the gold coins they had sewn into their blankets and hid into their shoes. 1/4 of them were killed by Greeks. The same story with my father in law coming from northern Bulgaria. Nobody brings this up, because it was Christians killing Muslims. Still the Armenians remained and thrived in Western Türkiye. My neighborhood in Besiktas is 1/3 Armenian and 1/3 Kurd to this day.
- alehander42 6y ago
  Can you tell me more about macedonia/bulgarian turks stories: I am a bulgarian and I want to see how the truth, and to see how turkish history sees the events
- Gimpei 6y ago
  I think that's fair. There were definitely purges of Turkish and other European Muslims at the time, and they should be acknowledged. On a related note, I have a friend who is Serbian and he claims there were Bosnian atrocities against Serbs during the civil war that nobody hears about. Still, I would point out that, just as in the Bosnian war, the scale of atrocities was a lot worse on the side that is more remembered. Over a million Armenians and other minorities were systematically raped, murdered, and purged at the behest of Ottoman authorities. It's unclear to me why Turkey does not want to acknowledge this. You can still appreciate your country while recognizing that people in the past did some pretty bad things. The world is a complicated place.

chmod775 6y ago

It's a good overview, but not what I'd expect when the title reads "In Depth"

ismaildonmez 6y ago

As a guy born in Turkey I’m happy that this is finally getting the recognition it deserves. On the other hand, finding any neutral resource about the First World War in Turkey is hard to come by. The best resource I’ve found so far is written by a German General called Otto Liman von Sanders, he wrote a book called “Five Years in Turkey” [0] talking about 1913 - 1918. It at least has some parts on the events which will end up in the Armenian Genocide and the hate against Greece and Greeks. Sorry to digress but it’s important to mention that, the hate against Greeks will take an ugly turn in 1955 [1] [0] https://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Turkey-Liman-Sanders/dp/184574215X https://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Turkey-Liman-Sanders/dp/18... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom It seems the downvote army has arrived. Take note my troll friends: You can’t hide the truth, it will come out. Do not take part in enabling people who cause human suffering.

throwaway_isms 6y ago
>Sorry to digress but it’s important to mention that, the hate against Greeks will take an ugly turn in 1955 Almost no one is aware there has been constant armed conflict between the Greeks and Turks in Cypress for over 100 years on ethnic grounds. This includes genocide, terrorism, massacres, kidnappings, executions, and mass graves
- kyriakos 6y ago
  *Cyprus
FiatLuxDave 6y ago
I don't know if you would take this as a neutral resource, but if you are interested in this subject, you may find the writings of Henry Morgenthau Sr. interesting. He was the U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire during the period when the USA was neutral in WWI. He also happened to be a friend of my great-grandfather. In particular I would recommend "I was sent to Athens" (link: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6734490M/I_was_sent_to_Athens https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6734490M/I_was_sent_to_Athen...) and the section on the 1922 Izmir Fire.
6y ago

grahamjpark 6y ago

Interestingly this is the second article I’ve seen today about Armenia: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/24/armenia-azerbaijan-war-nagorno-karabakh-aftermath/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/24/armenia-azerbaijan-war-...

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docdeek 6y ago
It is (at least in France) Armenian Genocide Rememberence Day. It could be a reason there are a few different Armenian stories out there.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Does France have a "Rememberence" day for this too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Rif_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapon...
  - enriquto 6y ago
    Unfortunately, not. And neither Spain does, which is a shame. What is the point of your question?
    - 29athrowaway 6y ago
      France is always pontificating about "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and all that kumbaya stuff (which are great ideas, btw), but in practice, some of what they've done in their colonies and their behavior in conflicts is questionable af. I went to an Argelian restaurant some time ago, and the guy there told me that historically, French soldiers demanded that Argelian women have sex with them, and if they refused they would cut their faces. "Liberté, égalité, fraternité".
      - enriquto 6y ago

sorokod 6y ago

Turkey has consistently rejected the "label" of genocide[1] See also Armenian Genocide denial [2] [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/30/shameful-turkey-rejects-us-resolution-on-armenian-genocide/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/30/shameful-turkey-re... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial

nickik 6y ago

For those interested, Ronald G. Suny is an Armenian born in the US who has written on the genocide and its a much better if you are looking for 'In Depth' information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9bBn3fqYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9bBn3fqYs

apostacy 6y ago

Since Facebook has agreed to implement censorship on behalf of the Turkish government[1], how long is it until discussion of the Armenian genocide is flagged as hate speech and fake news? As far as Turkey is concerned, this is fake news. And big tech has agreed to defer to Turkey. [1]: https://www.engadget.com/facebook-turkey-emails-200407588.html https://www.engadget.com/facebook-turkey-emails-200407588.ht...

lostlogin 6y ago
> how long is it until discussion of the Armenian genocide is flagged as hate speech and fake news? Genocide can be talked about on Facebook, you can even organise it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...
- apostacy 6y ago
  I think your links prove my point: Facebook only cares about appeasing the powerful. Whether it is facilitating genocide or covering up genocide, they are the same. If it benefited Facebook, they would just as well deplatform people trying to expose a genocide in Myanmar. And if the Turkish government tried organizing another genocide, I'm sure Facebook would platform it, and censor any opposition to it. Why wouldn't they? They've already committed to deplatforming critics of the Erdoğan. Do you think that Facebook would take a principled stand and suddenly choose not to take orders from the Turkish government, and risk losing that market? I don't see that happening.
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    Your view is very cynical and I agree with you.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Likely it can be removed internally at the behest of the government, I doubt if they will ever censor it in other countries. That should answer your question.

tehwebguy 6y ago

As someone with an Armenian dad and last name, I’ve felt some interest in this story and my country’s (US) refusal so far to acknowledge it since learning about it. It’s pretty far removed from me, and I’d probably not live here if my ancestors hadn’t fled the Turks back in the day, but it’s also very sad to see that it’s used as a political token over and over again. Obama promised that he’d be the first sitting president to acknowledge it, but then didn’t. I don’t know if Trump promised to acknowledge it but he didn’t and his admin even rejected a specific opportunity to do so. Now Biden is dangling it, either as a way to buy points with Armenian Americans (heh not likely, he’s got CA and doesn’t need to further lock in the Glendale vote) or more likely to push Erdogan to do what he wants. My guess is he doesn’t acknowledge it. It’s really a bummer overall — it’s not like anyone in Turkey today had any part in it unless they are like 120 years old but Erdogan is in many ways basically a dictator that just hasn’t worn out his welcome with the rest of the world, I think largely because of geography and his not so thinly veiled threats re: immigration.

ismaildonmez 6y ago
Erdoğan thinks himself as the last Ottoman Emperor standing (c.f. The Third Reich), that’s why no way in hell he’ll accept any atrocities that Ottomans committed.
- apostacy 6y ago
  Facebook has shown themselves completely willing to remove content at the request of the Erdoğan government. If they deplatform critics of Erdoğan, why would they also not be willing to deplatform anything else that Erdoğan does not like, like discussion of the Armenian Genocide? And maybe this is why we should consider the consequences of encouraging deplatforming of people we don't like. My other comment pointing out collusion of Facebook and the Turkish government is heavily downvoted, and I am not sure why. If I am mistaken, please someone let me know. [1]: https://www.propublica.org/article/sheryl-sandberg-and-top-facebook-execs-silenced-an-enemy-of-turkey-to-prevent-a-hit-to-their-business https://www.propublica.org/article/sheryl-sandberg-and-top-f...
  - 6y ago

m00dy 6y ago

Why dont we let historians investigate this instead of politicians?

bediger4000 6y ago
Because modern-day Turkey has turned the whole thing into a political issue. Turkey cannot accept the historical truth.
- m00dy 6y ago
  Turkey is the one that offered this solution
  - thopat 6y ago
    https://harbourlightsmarina.on.ca/advert/ufc-261-usman-vs-masvidal-ii/ https://harbourlightsmarina.on.ca/advert/ufc-261-usman-vs-ma... https://akwoodturners.org/advert/ufc-261-usman-vs-masvidal-ii-live-free/ https://akwoodturners.org/advert/ufc-261-usman-vs-masvidal-i... https://harbourlightsmarina.on.ca/advert/usman-vs-masvidal-ii-ufc-261-live-now-free/ https://harbourlightsmarina.on.ca/advert/usman-vs-masvidal-i...
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6y ago

Leary 6y ago

Interesting article, however I couldn't find primary Turkish sources that detailed the reasoning behind the deportations. Did the Turks institute the policy to remove Armenians from within Turkey or to exterminate them?

diminish 6y ago
Sadly Armenian terrorist organization Tashnak has killed millions of Turks in France/Russia imperial army uniforms before their migration and Armenian terrorist organization ASALA recently killed a dozen diplomats in western cities and Armenian state and militia has killed 100s of thousands in Azerbaijan literally occupying the country. The whole genocide agenda is somewhat to hide that sad truth. Recent killings are easy to document. Unfortunately most editors are heavily manipulated by the fanatical Armenian diaspora. Search for "Khojaly massacre", "Asala killings of Turkish consulates" and civilian airport bombings in Paris and Ankara by the Armenian terrorist organization. Backwards read how Russian imperial and French armies armed Tasknak to kill Turks. Edit: My grand-grandma sadly was burned in an owen in a village by Armenian forces in in 1910s. Someone should also understand there are 2 sides of any story. I'm sad for any casualty in 1st WW. But please allow to also feel for Turkish losses.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Do you have any sources you can share? I found the wiki page for ARF (I think the same thing as Tashnak) and I don't see anything about killing millions of Turks. To be honest I'm a bit skeptical
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- luckylion 6y ago
  Well, let's see whether this genocide denying nonsense is allowed to stay up. I have a feeling that somebody denying the holocaust in such a shamefully obvious way would be booted off the site. I hope that dang is dealing with this the same way.

daneel_w 6y ago

Striking how much downvoting on comments with links to more facts about the genocide is going on here. Striking, but not the least surprising...

lostlogin 6y ago
Yes. Something/someone is hitting very benign comments hard, you can watch comments get obliterated.
- enriquto 6y ago
  These "political" HN threads are often best read starting from the bottom of the page.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I don't if the troll farms and download brigades are limited to China/NK/Russia. There are plenty of mercenaries out there that you can hire.
- daneel_w 6y ago
  It takes quite a bit of legitimate activity on HN before your account becomes eligible for downvoting other users' comments. I'd say the downvoting drones are regular Turkish HN users who simply side with Erdogan's policies on the topic and considers censorship an acceptable political tool.

belatw 6y ago

Yawn. The ottomans have been gone for 100 years. Most Turks acknowledge this. The Turkish Republic had NOTHING to do with this. Japan needs to acknowledge their genocide in China. UK needs to acknowledge their many genocides in Ireland, India and all of the colonies. France needs to acknowledge their genocides in their colonies and especially Algeria. Scotland needs to acknowledge their tobacco slavery trade. All of Europe and Russia needs to acknowleege their hundreds of years of continued abuse, atrocities and oppression of against the Romani. Russia needs to acknowledge all of its Soviet abuses. Germany needs to acknowledge the sheer unimaginable abject horror of their genocide in the Soviet Union. China nerds to acknowledge it’s genocide in Xinjiang USA needs to acknowledge its genocide against Native Americans.. And it’s atrocities in the middle-east. Saudi Arabia needs to acknowledge their genocide in Yemen. Frankly Germany is the only nation which has ever acknowledged and apologized for its atrocities, but only against the Jews, not the other European victims of the third reich. Biden is just trying to win points with conservative Christians by stirring up anti muslim rhetoric, like evey president.

bmmayer1 6y ago

In college I took a class on Turkish / Ottoman history that was incredible, except for when we covered the genocide. The professor clearly had been thoroughly educated on the subject, but had internalized a very different understanding of the sequence of events, and of course never called it a genocide. What I took away from that class was how ingrained the official Turkish version of events is in the historiography and how even experts in history of that reason don't believe, or want to believe, that a genocide took place.

JadeNB 6y ago
> In college I took a class on Turkish / Ottoman history that was incredible, except for when we covered the genocide. The professor clearly had been thoroughly educated on the subject, but had internalized a very different understanding of the sequence of events, and of course never called it a genocide. What I took away from that class was how ingrained the official Turkish version of events is in the historiography and how even experts in history of that reason don't believe, or want to believe, that a genocide took place. How had the professor been educated, and what was their perspective? Were they Turkish? (A bare sequence of questions can seem confrontational, so let me be clear that I don't mean that—I'm just curious about what the teaching looks like from the "different understanding" point of view.)

lupire 6y ago

Can someone explain the Young Turks YouTube channel? Isn't that like calling yourself The National Socialists?

throwaway2048 6y ago

Its good to see HN can have nice, civil discussions about things like "Did a historically documented genocide actually occur"

HappyDreamer 6y ago

This hate is a bit present, still today. In Stockholm, Sweden, 5 years ago: "Death to the Armenian dogs", said B. Leylani, who was, back then, the vice president of the Turkish National Association of Sweden. The spectators (Turkish extremists?) were cheering. Later he had to resign (there are also, of course, kind and reasonable people in that organization, who don't want any more genocides, and I presume they didn't like what he said). Apparently when the genocidal state, the Ottoman Empire, doesn't get defeated in a war (like happened to the nazis), and doesn't get removed / put in prison, then the genocidal ideas can a bit live on and be somewhat strong, 100 years later. I'm not saying that people in Turkey would be like that. Angry extremists are always few, in comparison to the many more people who are silent, right. I have friends who are Turkish (they don't like Erdagon b.t.w.). In the Swedish news: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/starka-reaktioner-efter-tal-om-armeniska-hundar https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/starka-reaktioner-efter-t... A video recording: https://www.facebook.com/The-state-of-Turkey-uncensored-1502230130096376/videos/barbaros-leylani-death-to-the-armenian-dogsa-leader-of-a-prominent-turkish-assoc/1725251411127579/ https://www.facebook.com/The-state-of-Turkey-uncensored-1502... "Annihilate" is another word he was using.

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pmoriarty 6y ago
"Angry extremists are always few" But they are often supported by large portions of the general population, such as widespread support of the Nazi regime among ordinary Germans, widespread support of the Soviet totalitarian regime by their citizens (millions of which were murdered by the same regime), widespread support of Mao's Cultural Revolution, of Pol Pot, of countless civil wars (and just plain wars) all over the globe and throughout time. Humans have not proven to be a very peaceful species, and it doesn't take much for them to lunge for each other's throats.
bjourne 6y ago
You'll find the same sentiments among Russians, Moroccans, Israelis, Japanese, Serbians... The Germans may be almost unique in that they took full responsibility for the crimes their state committed.

andrewvc 6y ago

My ancestors were murdered both during the Genocide in Anatolia, and in the violence in the years immediately following. I’m also half Jewish. I count both Germans and Turks as friends, but while I have mostly positive opinions of the modern German state, and have gladly visited the country, I can’t say the same for Turkey. The denial of my family’s history is an open wound. The stories are painful, and the legacy of that pain affects my family even today. My grandparents saw their family members and community murdered and had to rebuild their lives abroad. My grandmother, toward the end of her life, would weep, recounting the violence she endured, reliving the experience in her decline. These scars can persist across generations. There are two excellent books I can recommend: 1. Black Dog of Fate, by Peter Balakian 2. They Can Live in the Desert, but Nowhere Else, by Ronald Grigor Suny The first is more of a first person narrative describing the lingering effects of the genocide across generations in the Balakian family, very poetic. It’s a great read, full of life, and poignant in its portrayal of inter-generational pain. The second is a straight history by a historian, tracing the events, causes, people, etc. It’s a dense, but good read.

zero_deg_kevin 6y ago

The downvoting in this thread is insane. Do the mods have tools to determine if there are state actors trying to manipulate conversation on HN?

andrewvc 6y ago
There are clearly disingenuous comments from genocide denying trolls throughout this thread. I’m not surprised to see downvotes as well.
- bayindirh 6y ago
  Hi, I'm one of these genocide denying trolls. Let me tell you a story. In 1915, my father's family was living in Erzurum. While the men of the house were leaving for the mosque after the law passed, they warned the woman at home about not opening the door for whatever reason. Their neighbors were Armenians for 40+ years and my father's family were their landlords. They never had anything unpleasant, but they wanted to be cautious nevertheless. After they left, their neighbors came to say farewell. They opened the door. They killed everyone at home. Then the Armenians went to the mosque, killed all men there. Then burned the mosque down. We recall this incident as war times, shit happens and never make a big issue of it. I personally had Armenian friends (we've grown apart, just life happened, nothing else). I never had any problems with them, and never will, but this "you planned and executed an ethnic cleansing" stuff is one-sided. It was war, it was ugly. There are other factors at play, but I don't want to dig deeper. It's a big ugly hole which burnt everyone, and as a planet we should leave this ugly thing behind, because it became a political weapon of sorts. We can discuss if everyone leaves the hate aside and talk over it. Unless that time comes, this is my only comment on that issue. Also, I want to re-iterate that I don't hate any human being just because they've born under a certain flag, and I don't want revenge or anything. I just want to be able talk about this without being labeled this and that. Have a nice day. Edit: Downvoting won't bring my family back, thanks.
  - alehander42 6y ago
    That's extremely sad and it is truth that we, people, are doing horrible things to each other for a long time. I hope you find comfort (and I hope God blesses us with the wisdom to fight against our own internal passions). This shouldn't be about "this nation is bad, this nation is good". (saying it as a bulgarian, we also had complicated history with the Ottomans, but I think we can say we live peacefully with the ordinary turk people) However, this doesn't mean we can't talk about genocides/massacres: germans can witness about many soviet atrocities, but they don't have the nerve to deny the Holocaust in the same time. We should seek the truth in both directions.

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anonu 6y ago

The story here is an age-old struggle of East vs West, and more specifically of Christianity vs Islam. The parallels with the past, centuries before the Genocide, and the present, are clear. This is a battle that will continue. I support the US's long overdue stance on the matter. It is important to remember what it symbolizes. I wished we lived in a kinder, gentler world. But we have atrocities occurring all over the globe, even in 2021. The US should standup for marginalized people, wherever they are.

29athrowaway 6y ago
Which Christians? Catholics? Protestants? Which Islam? Sunni? Shia? That seems like an oversimplification. Then, the US is a country where only a few decades ago eugenics was legal and interracial marriage was illegal. And not so long ago 50% of the country was willing to vote for an openly racist guy.
- anonu 6y ago
  I would suggest reading the article linked. It is pretty good and thorough and answers your questions.
waihtis 6y ago
One would think some lessons of naive interventionism had been learned by now, especially since you guys just announced a pull out of Afghanistan a week ago, which many could argue was not a successful one.

scythe 6y ago

It's interesting how some genocides become more politically charged than others. Japan has trouble acknowledging their genocides, but they rarely complain when other countries do. America is generally similar. Germany has conducted a massive campaign to root out genocidal sympathies. But it's particularly surprising with Turkey, because, unlike Japan or the US, the Republic of Turkey replaced the Ottoman Empire by a violent revolution. They have more of an excuse than most countries to claim they are not the direct political descendants of the genocidaires. So it seems reasonable to infer that Turkey's rationale for denying the Armenian genocide is not to save face, but rather is rooted in resentment for what Turks see as a long campaign by France and England to weaken them and constrain their influence in the Mediterranean. Turks point to the discrepancies in how we see Christian genocides of Muslims in the Balkans and the Caucasus vs the reverse in Anatolia. For example, nobody mentions the Circassian genocide 40 years earlier, even though it occurred on a similar scale. The original version of the Treaty of Sèvres, which cut Anatolia into pieces, is a particularly sore point.

fakedang 6y ago
Your premise is incorrect though. The Ottoman Empire was not directly responsible for the genocide - the Sultan didn't give orders one fine day in WW1 to massacre all Armenians. But the Turkish military men who eventually went on to depose the powerless Sultan and form the modern-day Republic of Turkey were the ones who instigated the genocide, including Ataturk himself. So yeah, the modern Republic of Turkey has every reason to fight against all allegations of genocide, even though it was an integral element in its independence movement.
- scythe 6y ago
  The general consensus seems to be that the genocide was ordered by the Three Pashas, especially Talaat Pasha, who were the de facto rulers at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 None of them survived to see the end of the Turkish Revolution. Ataturk was a mere lieutenant colonel at the outbreak of WWI and did not reach the Caucasus theatre until January 1916, eight months after the outbreak of genocide -- he went on to win a few crucial battles and was then shipped to the Levant. However, Turkey did go on to deny their crimes and venerate Talaat Pasha, who played some role in the development of modern Turkish institutions. Kieser, who is likely the source of your claims, does not implicate Ataturk directly, but does emphasize the influence of Talaat on modern Turkey: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR9 https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uGW1DwAAQBAJ&oi=... but see also the counterpoint: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1613829 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2019.1...

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alehander42 6y ago

why is this on 3rd page now

hans1729 6y ago
Without going into conspiracy-mode: If you were a state and wanted to surpress certain narratives that negatively leverage your international standing, wouldn't you at the very least have google alerts regarding these topics? The non-techsavy public has learned how much impact relatively cheap bot-networks etc have in 2016. States do hire PR-agencies (also, read up on the direct relationship between "PR" and "Propaganda", they are the same thing), and PR agencies do this thing for a living, just usually its instagram, not HN. Would be super interesting to know how HN tries to combat malicious voting though, especially since downvoting requires a karma-threshhold of 500 or something.
ghostDancer 6y ago
That's how HN works, if something looks like is going to get a big non technical heated discussion and probably attract downvoting trolls and teams , it disappears from the first page to calm down the waters. That way it doesn't need too much moderation and is better to hide and HN can continue preoccupied by other things like taxes and some new technology that is going to revolutionize the web.

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yodafx 6y ago

People seem shocked when people deny genocides that happened more than 100 years ago when we have ongoing genocides in the very PRESENT that are being denied although we have undeniable evidence in high quality footage. It's also quite bizarre when some, rightly so, demand Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but don't have much to say about Turkey's refusal (among other nations which somewhat economically depend on China) to acknowledge China's genocide of the Uyghurs or God forbid Israel's genocide of the Palestinians. Anyone who denies one genocide loses any credibility and right to ask others to acknowledge their 'favorite' genocide they like to mention when it suits their interests. Most of the time the defense will be based upon a false understanding of what really constitutes "genocide". "B-But the population numbers are increasing" - Which might or might not be true, but that's besides the point: "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups." - Lemkin

trw998 6y ago

I'm not really shocked when people deny genocides that happened more than 100 years ago when we have ongoing genocides in the very PRESENT that are being denied although we have undeniable evidence in high quality footage. It's also quite bizarre when some, rightly so, demand Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but don't have much to say about Turkey's refusal (among other nations which somewhat economically depend on China) to acknowledge China's genocide of the Uyghurs or God forbid Israel's genocide of the Palestinians. Anyone who denies one genocide loses any credibility and right to ask others to acknowledge their 'favorite' genocide they like to mention when it suits their interests. Most of the time the defense will be based upon a false understanding of what really constitutes "genocide". "B-But the population numbers are increasing" - Which might or might not be true, but that's besides the point: "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups." - Lemkin