3 ms·

EU law already handled the credit card duopoly, should work the same here. The changes didn't propagate to US though.

ksec 6y ago
The Apple Apologist keep saying it is Apple's platform, Apple dictates the rules, if you dont like it go somewhere else. And yet when EU say it is their market their rules, Apple apologist keep saying foul. You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet.
- kergonath 6y ago
  > You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares. The monopoly thing is an Americanism and is irrelevant as far as European law is concerned anyway. Companies are tried for anticompetitive behaviour or abuse of a dominant position, neither requires a monopoly or anything close. It is enough to show that the company is dominant in one market, and using that unfairly to advance its position in another market. A company can be dominant with a 60% marketshare, depending on the market. On the other hand, being a monopoly is perfectly legal as long as it is not used for anticompetitive purposes. Same for oligopolies. There are a lot of markets served by only 2 or 3 companies and that’s fine as long as everyone behaves.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Agree on everything you have said. It is the Anti-Competitive nature that is of concern. I think Benedict Evans puts it best, do other business "Fear" of losing market access because of certain company.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      Oh yes, I am not disagreeing with you, on the contrary. Well, apart for the "Apple apologist" bit. I would hate to be forced to install third-party app stores when they are allowed. We know the second they can get away with it, software from Adobe, Microsoft, and Facebook will be distributed only through their own app stores. I trust these companies far less than Apple as far as my personal and payment information is concerned. But the points you alluded to are important and often overlooked in these discussions. The CJEU won't use the Sherman antitrust act or any legal definition from US laws. The EU has put competition as a supra-national religion, but they don't care about consumers in the way American courts do, and they definitely won't wait until someone has a monopoly. I expect them to take the narrow view and ignore all security and safety aspects and force competition.
      - jsnell 6y ago
        Which of Adobe, Microsoft or Facebook distribute their software only via their own app store on Android? Given the answer is "none of them", why do you think they'd do that on iOS?
        kergonath 6y ago
        There is no money to be made on Android, that is not the model they’ll follow. Looking at the core platform where they actually do make money is more insightful. Adobe has been much more involved on the iOS side. We have to go through their crap on their website on macOS. Same for Microsoft (though they do offer a version of Office on the Mac App Store and are generally better than other big software editors). We all know how Facebook will behave. They’ll see an alternative App Store as a great way to slurp in as much personal data as possible, and will try to get exclusives to lure people in. Hopefully they’ll fail, but maybe not. Then there are game companies and the plethora of launchers/stores/things. Every one of them being a PII leak waiting to happen.
      - ksec 6y ago
        >I expect them to take the narrow view and ignore all security and safety aspects and force competition. Yes. Again agreeing on everything. I want a middle ground. And I want to push for a middle ground. Except it is such a rare view, and the whole discourse is dominated by both extreme ( so to speak ).
- thu2111 6y ago
  Of course they cry foul, those two things aren't comparable at all. Cost of switching to Android from Apple: walking down the street and buying a new phone. Cost of switching from the EU to some other jurisdiction: move to another continent. Additionally, it's not the eu's market, Apple actually created the app Store and did significant work to make it real. It is apples, due to the long-standing principle of private property rights. The EU has done nothing to create that, mostly just taking control of pre-existing markets and infrastructures, so it is dystopian to talk about a government as if it owns the people within it. That's not how government is meant to be

ksec 6y ago

The Apple Apologist keep saying it is Apple's platform, Apple dictates the rules, if you dont like it go somewhere else. And yet when EU say it is their market their rules, Apple apologist keep saying foul. You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet.

kergonath 6y ago
> You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares. The monopoly thing is an Americanism and is irrelevant as far as European law is concerned anyway. Companies are tried for anticompetitive behaviour or abuse of a dominant position, neither requires a monopoly or anything close. It is enough to show that the company is dominant in one market, and using that unfairly to advance its position in another market. A company can be dominant with a 60% marketshare, depending on the market. On the other hand, being a monopoly is perfectly legal as long as it is not used for anticompetitive purposes. Same for oligopolies. There are a lot of markets served by only 2 or 3 companies and that’s fine as long as everyone behaves.
- ksec 6y ago
  Agree on everything you have said. It is the Anti-Competitive nature that is of concern. I think Benedict Evans puts it best, do other business "Fear" of losing market access because of certain company.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    Oh yes, I am not disagreeing with you, on the contrary. Well, apart for the "Apple apologist" bit. I would hate to be forced to install third-party app stores when they are allowed. We know the second they can get away with it, software from Adobe, Microsoft, and Facebook will be distributed only through their own app stores. I trust these companies far less than Apple as far as my personal and payment information is concerned. But the points you alluded to are important and often overlooked in these discussions. The CJEU won't use the Sherman antitrust act or any legal definition from US laws. The EU has put competition as a supra-national religion, but they don't care about consumers in the way American courts do, and they definitely won't wait until someone has a monopoly. I expect them to take the narrow view and ignore all security and safety aspects and force competition.
    - jsnell 6y ago
      Which of Adobe, Microsoft or Facebook distribute their software only via their own app store on Android? Given the answer is "none of them", why do you think they'd do that on iOS?
      - kergonath 6y ago
        There is no money to be made on Android, that is not the model they’ll follow. Looking at the core platform where they actually do make money is more insightful. Adobe has been much more involved on the iOS side. We have to go through their crap on their website on macOS. Same for Microsoft (though they do offer a version of Office on the Mac App Store and are generally better than other big software editors). We all know how Facebook will behave. They’ll see an alternative App Store as a great way to slurp in as much personal data as possible, and will try to get exclusives to lure people in. Hopefully they’ll fail, but maybe not. Then there are game companies and the plethora of launchers/stores/things. Every one of them being a PII leak waiting to happen.
    - ksec 6y ago
      >I expect them to take the narrow view and ignore all security and safety aspects and force competition. Yes. Again agreeing on everything. I want a middle ground. And I want to push for a middle ground. Except it is such a rare view, and the whole discourse is dominated by both extreme ( so to speak ).
thu2111 6y ago
Of course they cry foul, those two things aren't comparable at all. Cost of switching to Android from Apple: walking down the street and buying a new phone. Cost of switching from the EU to some other jurisdiction: move to another continent. Additionally, it's not the eu's market, Apple actually created the app Store and did significant work to make it real. It is apples, due to the long-standing principle of private property rights. The EU has done nothing to create that, mostly just taking control of pre-existing markets and infrastructures, so it is dystopian to talk about a government as if it owns the people within it. That's not how government is meant to be