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> I am not sure why it's relevant to point this out. Actually I think it's rather heartless. Don't you have some ideals to strive for? It seems you're talking

by rualca 6y ago

> I am not sure why it's relevant to point this out. Actually I think it's rather heartless. Don't you have some ideals to strive for? It seems you're talking past the parent comment. The fact that some people are down on their luck does not cause crime and insecurity per se. However, mental illness and drug abuse does have a considerable link with safety problems. Let's put it this way: if you grant housing to someone who suffers from drug addiction or mental illness, those person's problems and the negative impact they have on society won't go magically away. In fact, think about it for a minute: why are homeless shelters and drug clinics notorious hotspots of insecurity?

lazyasciiart 6y ago
A lot of them will magically go away, is the thing. Even more of them will magically go away if you give them actual healthcare and social workers along with the housing.
- austincheney 6y ago
  Let’s also give them transportation, nice clothing, and fast internet so that they can apply for great jobs. Sometimes jobs are hard to get so we should also give them employment workshops and education. Even still they would be better off with an advanced degree so we should give them enrollment at a major local university. We should also give them watches, writing utensils, and brief cases so that they are prepared to take notes and be on time. We should also give them a cellphone and cell service so that they can better reach potential employers. We should also give them athletic equipment, shoes, and workout clothes because working out is necessary for optimum health. We should also give them tax exclusions because taxes are oppressive. We should also give them nice laptops in order to write their resumes and track their potential application status. We should also give them education in entrepreneurship so they can attain wealth ahead of their peers and thereby never return to homelessness. We should also purge the entirety of their criminal histories as that is a major employment discriminator. Dating is hard and loneliness is an epidemic so we should also provide exclusive access to a dating service. Then after we have given every homeless person a bunch of stuff homelessness will entirely disappear never to return right? There is no reason to think this. It makes me want to be homeless. Instead a better option is to make homelessness less attractive and less available. Homelessness is less a choice when there is nothing to enable it. How high is the homeless rate in rural North Dakota, northern Wyoming, or west Texas for example?
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    I hear a lot of people say that there's too much welfare and support for homeless people and it makes them want to get in on it, but none of them have ever gone to live in a park to get on that list so I think they're not being honest. Generally I think there is a path pretty far away from your silly picture, and also pretty far away from making them all die outside.
    - austincheney 6y ago
      I did live kind of like that off and on for a year in my first Afghanistan deployment. You are correct that most people have absolutely no idea what it’s like to live like that, but once you do you realize it’s both restrictive and liberating. Being outside all the time makes it hard to be inside in a way that’s hard to explain.
      - lazyasciiart 6y ago
        I didn't say whether they knew what it's like to be homeless, but no, living outside is not the defining feature. I said that even people who complain that the government is making it too attractive don't follow through to do it by choice, because they're wrong and they don't believe their own arguments.
        austincheney 6y ago
        > but no, living outside is not the defining feature. I take it you haven't been to Afghanistan.
- rualca 6y ago
  > A lot of them will magically go away, is the thing. No, they really don't. Someone's schizophrenia doesn't magically vanish if you get your own two-bedroom apartment, nor does your heroin addiction magically vanish if you get a fancy studio apartment with the nicest view. It's outright insulting to every single person who ever struggled with mental illness or drug addiction to even suggest that real estate is a magical cure to problems. From where I'm standing, this looks an awful lot like correlation being passed off as causality. You see happy families in the suburbs, with their nice house and nice life, and then you see people struggling with mental health and drug addiction, and all you see is that one's have a house while others don't. Well, guess what needs to be in place in your life before you can even be in a position to buy a house.
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    This isn't hypothetical and it isn't some silly correlation, there are plenty of successful programs doing exactly this, commonly called "housing first". Real estate magically reduces your need for whatever substance you can find to feel relaxed enough to sleep on concrete. Being in the same place every day magically cures your ability to have your medication available every morning. Living in a house magically stops you from needing to wear the same wet socks until your feet peel off. Sleeping in a bed, staying warm and fed and hydrated - all of these make a huge difference to physical and mental health. Do they fix everything? No, that's why I mentioned the supports that need to be added. But they're significant improvements anyway.
snthd 6y ago
>In fact, think about it for a minute: why are homeless shelters and drug clinics notorious hotspots of insecurity? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what%27s+it+like+to+live+in+a+homeless+shelter https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what%27s+it+like+to+live+in+a+home... https://invisiblepeople.tv/what-is-it-like-to-stay-in-a-homeless-shelter/ https://invisiblepeople.tv/what-is-it-like-to-stay-in-a-home... >Wendi’s Experience >This is what Wendi from Houston, TX had to say about her shelter experience: >“The largest homeless shelter in Houston is the Salvation Army, or “Sally House” as it is commonly called. It has been shut down three times in the last two years due to bedbug infestation, abruptly forcing folks who were trying to get their lives together to abandon most of their belongings and head back to the streets. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. >Staying at Sally House means having a 5pm curfew, and being awakened at 4:30am to be ready for 5am church, in order to get a breakfast of cold cereal and sent on your way for the day. These hours are totally unrealistic for getting a job in the real world; thus the system forces you to stay in these conditions. >On top of all of this, you aren’t allowed to have any of your belongings. They are placed in a closet for ‘safekeeping,’ which is usually anything but safe. But more on that later. Instead of your sleeping bag or bedroll, you are given a thin hospital quality blanket, no pillow – and either a cot (if you are lucky) or a thin foam mat on the floor (like a yoga mat). This is where you will sleep, 6 inches from a stranger, after attending the 6pm church service in order to get a sack lunch for dinner. Showers and laundry are allowed once per week. >Rarely does a ‘client’ get assigned shower and laundry on the same day, so both pretty much defeat the purpose. You either have to bathe and put dirty clothes back on, or do laundry and put your clean outfit on a dirty body. You can be kicked out if you are caught taking a sponge bath or rinsing out your undergarments in the restroom sink. >Please don’t think I am just picking on Sally House. These are the rules at every shelter in Houston. Times may vary a bit, but the main points are the same. Star of Hope is commonly referred to as Star of Dope because most of their staff is ‘former’ addicts who are not only still using but actively dealing. Restoration Hope Ministries forces its clients to panhandle all day and then confiscates the money. The list goes on and on. This is why many of us choose not to go to shelters. >When personal property is put in a closet, unless you are the first one there in the morning you risk things being stolen (if the staff hasn’t done so already). When the stranger bunked next to you (and the staff) are high as a kite on every substance known to man, you risk being assaulted, raped, or killed. Sleep doesn’t come easy when you have to live with these facts. >I sleep better on a sidewalk with my homeless ‘family’ around me than I ever could in a shelter.”

by rualca 6y ago

lazyasciiart 6y ago

A lot of them will magically go away, is the thing. Even more of them will magically go away if you give them actual healthcare and social workers along with the housing.

austincheney 6y ago
Let’s also give them transportation, nice clothing, and fast internet so that they can apply for great jobs. Sometimes jobs are hard to get so we should also give them employment workshops and education. Even still they would be better off with an advanced degree so we should give them enrollment at a major local university. We should also give them watches, writing utensils, and brief cases so that they are prepared to take notes and be on time. We should also give them a cellphone and cell service so that they can better reach potential employers. We should also give them athletic equipment, shoes, and workout clothes because working out is necessary for optimum health. We should also give them tax exclusions because taxes are oppressive. We should also give them nice laptops in order to write their resumes and track their potential application status. We should also give them education in entrepreneurship so they can attain wealth ahead of their peers and thereby never return to homelessness. We should also purge the entirety of their criminal histories as that is a major employment discriminator. Dating is hard and loneliness is an epidemic so we should also provide exclusive access to a dating service. Then after we have given every homeless person a bunch of stuff homelessness will entirely disappear never to return right? There is no reason to think this. It makes me want to be homeless. Instead a better option is to make homelessness less attractive and less available. Homelessness is less a choice when there is nothing to enable it. How high is the homeless rate in rural North Dakota, northern Wyoming, or west Texas for example?
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  I hear a lot of people say that there's too much welfare and support for homeless people and it makes them want to get in on it, but none of them have ever gone to live in a park to get on that list so I think they're not being honest. Generally I think there is a path pretty far away from your silly picture, and also pretty far away from making them all die outside.
  - austincheney 6y ago
    I did live kind of like that off and on for a year in my first Afghanistan deployment. You are correct that most people have absolutely no idea what it’s like to live like that, but once you do you realize it’s both restrictive and liberating. Being outside all the time makes it hard to be inside in a way that’s hard to explain.
    - lazyasciiart 6y ago
      I didn't say whether they knew what it's like to be homeless, but no, living outside is not the defining feature. I said that even people who complain that the government is making it too attractive don't follow through to do it by choice, because they're wrong and they don't believe their own arguments.
      - austincheney 6y ago
        > but no, living outside is not the defining feature. I take it you haven't been to Afghanistan.
rualca 6y ago
> A lot of them will magically go away, is the thing. No, they really don't. Someone's schizophrenia doesn't magically vanish if you get your own two-bedroom apartment, nor does your heroin addiction magically vanish if you get a fancy studio apartment with the nicest view. It's outright insulting to every single person who ever struggled with mental illness or drug addiction to even suggest that real estate is a magical cure to problems. From where I'm standing, this looks an awful lot like correlation being passed off as causality. You see happy families in the suburbs, with their nice house and nice life, and then you see people struggling with mental health and drug addiction, and all you see is that one's have a house while others don't. Well, guess what needs to be in place in your life before you can even be in a position to buy a house.
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  This isn't hypothetical and it isn't some silly correlation, there are plenty of successful programs doing exactly this, commonly called "housing first". Real estate magically reduces your need for whatever substance you can find to feel relaxed enough to sleep on concrete. Being in the same place every day magically cures your ability to have your medication available every morning. Living in a house magically stops you from needing to wear the same wet socks until your feet peel off. Sleeping in a bed, staying warm and fed and hydrated - all of these make a huge difference to physical and mental health. Do they fix everything? No, that's why I mentioned the supports that need to be added. But they're significant improvements anyway.

snthd 6y ago

>In fact, think about it for a minute: why are homeless shelters and drug clinics notorious hotspots of insecurity? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what%27s+it+like+to+live+in+a+homeless+shelter https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what%27s+it+like+to+live+in+a+home... https://invisiblepeople.tv/what-is-it-like-to-stay-in-a-homeless-shelter/ https://invisiblepeople.tv/what-is-it-like-to-stay-in-a-home... >Wendi’s Experience >This is what Wendi from Houston, TX had to say about her shelter experience: >“The largest homeless shelter in Houston is the Salvation Army, or “Sally House” as it is commonly called. It has been shut down three times in the last two years due to bedbug infestation, abruptly forcing folks who were trying to get their lives together to abandon most of their belongings and head back to the streets. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. >Staying at Sally House means having a 5pm curfew, and being awakened at 4:30am to be ready for 5am church, in order to get a breakfast of cold cereal and sent on your way for the day. These hours are totally unrealistic for getting a job in the real world; thus the system forces you to stay in these conditions. >On top of all of this, you aren’t allowed to have any of your belongings. They are placed in a closet for ‘safekeeping,’ which is usually anything but safe. But more on that later. Instead of your sleeping bag or bedroll, you are given a thin hospital quality blanket, no pillow – and either a cot (if you are lucky) or a thin foam mat on the floor (like a yoga mat). This is where you will sleep, 6 inches from a stranger, after attending the 6pm church service in order to get a sack lunch for dinner. Showers and laundry are allowed once per week. >Rarely does a ‘client’ get assigned shower and laundry on the same day, so both pretty much defeat the purpose. You either have to bathe and put dirty clothes back on, or do laundry and put your clean outfit on a dirty body. You can be kicked out if you are caught taking a sponge bath or rinsing out your undergarments in the restroom sink. >Please don’t think I am just picking on Sally House. These are the rules at every shelter in Houston. Times may vary a bit, but the main points are the same. Star of Hope is commonly referred to as Star of Dope because most of their staff is ‘former’ addicts who are not only still using but actively dealing. Restoration Hope Ministries forces its clients to panhandle all day and then confiscates the money. The list goes on and on. This is why many of us choose not to go to shelters. >When personal property is put in a closet, unless you are the first one there in the morning you risk things being stolen (if the staff hasn’t done so already). When the stranger bunked next to you (and the staff) are high as a kite on every substance known to man, you risk being assaulted, raped, or killed. Sleep doesn’t come easy when you have to live with these facts. >I sleep better on a sidewalk with my homeless ‘family’ around me than I ever could in a shelter.”