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You're letting outcomes dictate your opinions. What if Alonso didn't recover from that challenge and Netherlands won 5-0? Would your opinion on the yellow stay

You're letting outcomes dictate your opinions. What if Alonso didn't recover from that challenge and Netherlands won 5-0? Would your opinion on the yellow stay the same?

brudgers 6y ago
My opinion is based on a little experience refereeing and a lot of geeking out about it. The Webb incident was the top referee in the world refereeing the top game in the world. Webb had already given four yellows by the twenty eighth minute. Alonso got up. Twenty years earlier it might not have even been a yellow card. In that game at that moment all that was needed was a yellow card. The game went on and didn’t spiral out of control until after the late winner. Or to put my opinion in perspective my referee geekery is why I know what Webb said later. At the time the announcers weren’t howling for a red. Neither were the players on the pitch. A yellow kept the peace. A much better critique of my argument would point out that the Dutch were officially the home team and that history also would have given them a better claim to home team as well. But the Dutch did end with ten so there’s that. Yet Webb managed to disperse the first eight Dutch yellow cards to eight different Dutch starters. That’s good refereeing...keeping the peace.
- ksm1717 6y ago
  I agree. Abruptly sending a player off only works punitively to give permanent advantage to one team. Home fans that feel ripped off by a “missed” red card might instead feel some hidden guilt or something, even if they won’t admit it. Their team didn’t prove they could beat the opponent at full strength. I think it’s a rare occasion that a fan would fully support a decision against their team; the rules are only perfectly carried out when they benefit me. I suppose this is different when the game is a 1/38 league match instead of a winner takes all situation. Spectators are disenchanted by combat sport matches being won by technicality - and that kind of outcome is part of those rules! It’s all about entertainment and exciting competition after all, right?
- dnh44 6y ago
  My memory of that is so different. I remember an outclassed Dutch team basically trying to cheat their way to victory through dirty play. It would have been a massive injustice had Spain not won.
  - tomgp 6y ago
    Yeah I would have preferred harsher refereeing and the risk of a dull match (though I suspect we would have seen a whole bunch of Spanish goals) than sitting through that unedifying spectacle. It was just depressing and the Dutch play was often out and out dangerous
  - brudgers 6y ago
    The light touch of the Spanish tikatoka was backed by the dark arts of the aging Puyol and the youthful Ramos. Both had picked up yellows before de Jong got his. A lesser referee could have found reason to give either a second card. Webb gave the players the game they wanted as good referees do. He avoided an officiating fiasco like the 2006 final. Fouls are part of the game. They are not cheating. The game is won by the number of balls in the back of the nets, not by time of possession or completed passes. As they say, "The ball is round. The game is ninety minutes. Everything else is just theory."
    - dnh44 6y ago
      I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree because in my opinion it was an officiating fiasco. De Jong avoiding a straight red with his kick to the chest without an attempt on the ball is a total fiasco. The referee allowed the game to get out of control which is almost as bad as over officiating. But at least it’s impossible to make the argument that Spain won because of bad officiating. I can sympathise somewhat with the perspective of the Dutch team. It was their third final and they knew they were outmatched by Spain’s tiki-taka. Still even considering that I think their actions on the pitch were disgraceful. I did always wonder what Cruyff’s opinion of that game was and I managed to find an article from the time. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-final-johan-cruyff-holland https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-f...

You're letting outcomes dictate your opinions. What if Alonso didn't recover from that challenge and Netherlands won 5-0? Would your opinion on the yellow stay the same?

brudgers 6y ago

My opinion is based on a little experience refereeing and a lot of geeking out about it. The Webb incident was the top referee in the world refereeing the top game in the world. Webb had already given four yellows by the twenty eighth minute. Alonso got up. Twenty years earlier it might not have even been a yellow card. In that game at that moment all that was needed was a yellow card. The game went on and didn’t spiral out of control until after the late winner. Or to put my opinion in perspective my referee geekery is why I know what Webb said later. At the time the announcers weren’t howling for a red. Neither were the players on the pitch. A yellow kept the peace. A much better critique of my argument would point out that the Dutch were officially the home team and that history also would have given them a better claim to home team as well. But the Dutch did end with ten so there’s that. Yet Webb managed to disperse the first eight Dutch yellow cards to eight different Dutch starters. That’s good refereeing...keeping the peace.

ksm1717 6y ago
I agree. Abruptly sending a player off only works punitively to give permanent advantage to one team. Home fans that feel ripped off by a “missed” red card might instead feel some hidden guilt or something, even if they won’t admit it. Their team didn’t prove they could beat the opponent at full strength. I think it’s a rare occasion that a fan would fully support a decision against their team; the rules are only perfectly carried out when they benefit me. I suppose this is different when the game is a 1/38 league match instead of a winner takes all situation. Spectators are disenchanted by combat sport matches being won by technicality - and that kind of outcome is part of those rules! It’s all about entertainment and exciting competition after all, right?
dnh44 6y ago
My memory of that is so different. I remember an outclassed Dutch team basically trying to cheat their way to victory through dirty play. It would have been a massive injustice had Spain not won.
- tomgp 6y ago
  Yeah I would have preferred harsher refereeing and the risk of a dull match (though I suspect we would have seen a whole bunch of Spanish goals) than sitting through that unedifying spectacle. It was just depressing and the Dutch play was often out and out dangerous
- brudgers 6y ago
  The light touch of the Spanish tikatoka was backed by the dark arts of the aging Puyol and the youthful Ramos. Both had picked up yellows before de Jong got his. A lesser referee could have found reason to give either a second card. Webb gave the players the game they wanted as good referees do. He avoided an officiating fiasco like the 2006 final. Fouls are part of the game. They are not cheating. The game is won by the number of balls in the back of the nets, not by time of possession or completed passes. As they say, "The ball is round. The game is ninety minutes. Everything else is just theory."
  - dnh44 6y ago
    I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree because in my opinion it was an officiating fiasco. De Jong avoiding a straight red with his kick to the chest without an attempt on the ball is a total fiasco. The referee allowed the game to get out of control which is almost as bad as over officiating. But at least it’s impossible to make the argument that Spain won because of bad officiating. I can sympathise somewhat with the perspective of the Dutch team. It was their third final and they knew they were outmatched by Spain’s tiki-taka. Still even considering that I think their actions on the pitch were disgraceful. I did always wonder what Cruyff’s opinion of that game was and I managed to find an article from the time. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-final-johan-cruyff-holland https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/12/world-cup-f...