6 ms·

It's hard to argue with the claim - if you have an iOS phone or tablet, for example, it is a monopoly, since it's the only place you can buy a program for your

by geenew 6y ago

It's hard to argue with the claim - if you have an iOS phone or tablet, for example, it is a monopoly, since it's the only place you can buy a program for your computer. The walled garden has real benefits in security and privacy, but seems to require centralized control, and comes at the expense of user freedom. A solution to the monopoly pricing problem could be to treat app store controllers (currently A & G) to the same type of control that credit card issuers are subject to, and place a limit on the rates they can charge. A solution to the security vs freedom question could be to require that users have the option to opt out of app store controls for installing programs.

015a 6y ago
I don't even buy the "security" argument; MacOS is a highly secure operating system, produced by the same company, which has no forced walled-garden App Store. There certainly are exploits and scams which happen; just like on iOS. The argument sounds great in theory, but in practice, it simply doesn't hold water; security & privacy can (and should) (and does) happen at the OS layer, not application distribution.
- fastball 6y ago
  macOS is definitely less secure than iOS.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    What's your definition of "secure" here?
    - fastball 6y ago
      Same as everyone else's, I'd expect – less possibility (higher difficulty for attackers) of viruses / data exfiltration / etc.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        How is that less possible? Did grandparent do a diff between the iOS and MacOS CVE list or is it a hunch based on which platform is more locked down?
        fastball 6y ago
        This is architecturally speaking – specifically, more wholistic sandboxing. You literally can't do a whole host of things on an iOS device without first jailbreaking it. Things which you can do on macOS by default. Apple has added some limitations to macOS that do similar in the past few years (namely expanding the oversight of "Gatekeeper"), but it is still allows far more behaviors than an iOS device does. A system with a smaller attack surface (made by the same company with fairly consistent engineering practices) is more secure. That is the assumption I am making here.
  - infinityplus1 6y ago
    If it's less secure, why are they selling it? They claim their policies are to protect consumers. But then they keep launching new Macs with less secure operating systems for general purpose use. Isn't it hypocritical? iOS apps are themselves made using this "less secure" operating system. Won't someone hack your Mac and add malicious code inside your iOS apps? /sarcasm
- erhk 6y ago
  Yes, given the number of articles posted on hacker news that detail apps which circumvent protections on Apple... That's a bold claim
- threatofrain 6y ago
  But I don't think it's very controversial to argue that iOS is more secure than MacOS (to the point of inconvenience), and that this is a reason why integration with the health data on the iPhone will pose a challenge. The iPhone is also much higher stakes than MacOS in terms of total number of users affected by any exploit.
- zepto 6y ago
  For this to be true, Apple would have had to remove no scams. Not just let a few through.
RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
If I build a shopping center that gets tons of foot traffic, pay to build the amenities and security, and then charge stores rent, it doesn't suddenly become a monopoly when the tenants feel that the rent is too high.
- awat 6y ago
  It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores.
  - RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
    > It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. Android exists > I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores. How is the scalability of the analogy relevant?
    - dylan604 6y ago
      > Android exists So I see this as 2-sides of the same coin. From the developer's perspective, they can choose which platforms to develop. As a consumer, if you have chosen iDevice, then you can only purchase from the one single store. However, you did make that decision on your own. Corp making you use iDevice, then why are you loading apps onto it that the company did not provide you in the first place?
    - ksec 6y ago
      >Android exists So another Mall also charges 30%. Do I have a third mall to choose from? Or can I set up a third mall ? What is the market entry barrier for a third mall ? Are these Mall a necessity in the community? I wish people would stop using over simplified analogy.
      - tracer4201 6y ago
ghayes 6y ago
Sure, and Keurig has a monopoly on coffee if you own a Keurig machine and don't buy from Starbucks. While these corporate actions *are* anti-consumer, they do not generally fall in line with the standard definition of a monopoly, which includes looking at the the whole market, not just a sub-section of it. E.g. my local golf course also has a monopoly on golf balls while I'm in their pro-shop.
- erhk 6y ago
  Make up a new word and fine them all the same. If you engage in anti consumer practices then I, a consumer, highly endorse anti corporate legislation.
  - RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
    TBH this is reasonable. I'm not on the side of Apple, but the monopoly claim is ridiculous to me.
  - Someone 6y ago
    Creating new law IMO, indeed is the way to go. Fining them for things they do now before such law exists, however, should not be pursued. Ex post acte law is forbidden in large parts of the world for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law: Ex post facto criminalization is also prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights. While American jurisdictions generally prohibit ex post facto laws, European countries apply the principle of lex mitior ("the milder law"). It provides that, if the law has changed after an offense was committed, the version of the law that applies is the one that is more advantageous for the accused. This means that ex post facto laws apply in European jurisdictions to the extent that they are the milder law.
    - hyperman1 6y ago
      Do human rights apply to corporations? E.g. in my country, Belgium, There is a difference between a law person vs natural person. I had assumed only a natural person can claim human rights, but I might be wrong here.
_kbh_ 6y ago
AltStore allows you to run any app you want on your iPhone without a jailbreak. How does the App Store have a monopoly when there are literally alternatives too it. This ignores Cydia and the other app stores that require you to jailbreak your phone. Apple has no more of a monopoly on iOS app sales then Google has on android apps, Microsoft has on the Xbox store, Sony has on the Sony store, or Nintendo has on the Nintendo store.
- singularity2001 6y ago
  Can't find AltStore on the appstore and can't even bundle my apps for usage outside of the app store any more (I honestly tried for three hours last year. maybe the stack overflow was outdated)
  - _kbh_ 6y ago
    The fact you couldn’t find AltStore on the App Store just proves the point more. The app doesn’t have to be in the app store to be installable on the phone.
- saurik 6y ago
  https://twitter.com/saurik/status/1337094724813918208 https://twitter.com/saurik/status/1337094724813918208
- dTal 6y ago
  https://altstore.io/faq/ https://altstore.io/faq/ Not exactly "first class" is it? "I followed the instructions, why is AltStore still not installing for me?" > This could happen for a number of reasons "AltStore freezes/takes forever to sign-in." > This could happen for a number of reasons "AltStore says “Could not find AltServer” when trying to refresh." > This means AltStore could not discover a running AltServer on the same WiFi network So you have to run your own local server? And it's janky as all get-out? This basically proves the point. If your app isn't on the app store, for 99.999% of users it doesn't exist; they will not be able to install it. At least on Android you can hand them an .apk and they can trivially install it.
wilde 6y ago
There are plenty of competing walled gardens on PC that sell video games. They seem to do fine. Apple doesn't even manage to protect its customers all that well with $64B in revenue: https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s... The App Store’s function is very similar to HR’s. It protects Apple, and other benefits are ancillary.

by geenew 6y ago

015a 6y ago

I don't even buy the "security" argument; MacOS is a highly secure operating system, produced by the same company, which has no forced walled-garden App Store. There certainly are exploits and scams which happen; just like on iOS. The argument sounds great in theory, but in practice, it simply doesn't hold water; security & privacy can (and should) (and does) happen at the OS layer, not application distribution.

fastball 6y ago
macOS is definitely less secure than iOS.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  What's your definition of "secure" here?
  - fastball 6y ago
    Same as everyone else's, I'd expect – less possibility (higher difficulty for attackers) of viruses / data exfiltration / etc.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      How is that less possible? Did grandparent do a diff between the iOS and MacOS CVE list or is it a hunch based on which platform is more locked down?
      - fastball 6y ago
        This is architecturally speaking – specifically, more wholistic sandboxing. You literally can't do a whole host of things on an iOS device without first jailbreaking it. Things which you can do on macOS by default. Apple has added some limitations to macOS that do similar in the past few years (namely expanding the oversight of "Gatekeeper"), but it is still allows far more behaviors than an iOS device does. A system with a smaller attack surface (made by the same company with fairly consistent engineering practices) is more secure. That is the assumption I am making here.
- infinityplus1 6y ago
  If it's less secure, why are they selling it? They claim their policies are to protect consumers. But then they keep launching new Macs with less secure operating systems for general purpose use. Isn't it hypocritical? iOS apps are themselves made using this "less secure" operating system. Won't someone hack your Mac and add malicious code inside your iOS apps? /sarcasm
erhk 6y ago
Yes, given the number of articles posted on hacker news that detail apps which circumvent protections on Apple... That's a bold claim
threatofrain 6y ago
But I don't think it's very controversial to argue that iOS is more secure than MacOS (to the point of inconvenience), and that this is a reason why integration with the health data on the iPhone will pose a challenge. The iPhone is also much higher stakes than MacOS in terms of total number of users affected by any exploit.
zepto 6y ago
For this to be true, Apple would have had to remove no scams. Not just let a few through.

RunawayGalaxy 6y ago

If I build a shopping center that gets tons of foot traffic, pay to build the amenities and security, and then charge stores rent, it doesn't suddenly become a monopoly when the tenants feel that the rent is too high.

awat 6y ago
It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores.
- RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
  > It does when you literally can’t operate your store in another mall. Android exists > I also don’t think this analogy scales very well since many stores operate both in and out of closed shopping centers. Including Apple’s stores. How is the scalability of the analogy relevant?
  - dylan604 6y ago
    > Android exists So I see this as 2-sides of the same coin. From the developer's perspective, they can choose which platforms to develop. As a consumer, if you have chosen iDevice, then you can only purchase from the one single store. However, you did make that decision on your own. Corp making you use iDevice, then why are you loading apps onto it that the company did not provide you in the first place?
  - ksec 6y ago
    >Android exists So another Mall also charges 30%. Do I have a third mall to choose from? Or can I set up a third mall ? What is the market entry barrier for a third mall ? Are these Mall a necessity in the community? I wish people would stop using over simplified analogy.
    - tracer4201 6y ago

ghayes 6y ago

Sure, and Keurig has a monopoly on coffee if you own a Keurig machine and don't buy from Starbucks. While these corporate actions *are* anti-consumer, they do not generally fall in line with the standard definition of a monopoly, which includes looking at the the whole market, not just a sub-section of it. E.g. my local golf course also has a monopoly on golf balls while I'm in their pro-shop.

erhk 6y ago
Make up a new word and fine them all the same. If you engage in anti consumer practices then I, a consumer, highly endorse anti corporate legislation.
- RunawayGalaxy 6y ago
  TBH this is reasonable. I'm not on the side of Apple, but the monopoly claim is ridiculous to me.
- Someone 6y ago
  Creating new law IMO, indeed is the way to go. Fining them for things they do now before such law exists, however, should not be pursued. Ex post acte law is forbidden in large parts of the world for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law: Ex post facto criminalization is also prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights. While American jurisdictions generally prohibit ex post facto laws, European countries apply the principle of lex mitior ("the milder law"). It provides that, if the law has changed after an offense was committed, the version of the law that applies is the one that is more advantageous for the accused. This means that ex post facto laws apply in European jurisdictions to the extent that they are the milder law.
  - hyperman1 6y ago
    Do human rights apply to corporations? E.g. in my country, Belgium, There is a difference between a law person vs natural person. I had assumed only a natural person can claim human rights, but I might be wrong here.

_kbh_ 6y ago

AltStore allows you to run any app you want on your iPhone without a jailbreak. How does the App Store have a monopoly when there are literally alternatives too it. This ignores Cydia and the other app stores that require you to jailbreak your phone. Apple has no more of a monopoly on iOS app sales then Google has on android apps, Microsoft has on the Xbox store, Sony has on the Sony store, or Nintendo has on the Nintendo store.

singularity2001 6y ago
Can't find AltStore on the appstore and can't even bundle my apps for usage outside of the app store any more (I honestly tried for three hours last year. maybe the stack overflow was outdated)
- _kbh_ 6y ago
  The fact you couldn’t find AltStore on the App Store just proves the point more. The app doesn’t have to be in the app store to be installable on the phone.
saurik 6y ago
https://twitter.com/saurik/status/1337094724813918208 https://twitter.com/saurik/status/1337094724813918208
dTal 6y ago
https://altstore.io/faq/ https://altstore.io/faq/ Not exactly "first class" is it? "I followed the instructions, why is AltStore still not installing for me?" > This could happen for a number of reasons "AltStore freezes/takes forever to sign-in." > This could happen for a number of reasons "AltStore says “Could not find AltServer” when trying to refresh." > This means AltStore could not discover a running AltServer on the same WiFi network So you have to run your own local server? And it's janky as all get-out? This basically proves the point. If your app isn't on the app store, for 99.999% of users it doesn't exist; they will not be able to install it. At least on Android you can hand them an .apk and they can trivially install it.

wilde 6y ago

There are plenty of competing walled gardens on PC that sell video games. They seem to do fine. Apple doesn't even manage to protect its customers all that well with $64B in revenue: https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s... The App Store’s function is very similar to HR’s. It protects Apple, and other benefits are ancillary.