4 ms·

How does one balance that with the counter desire to not want to go to a wedding, concert, football game, or plane with unvaccinated people?

andrew_v4 5y ago
It's a big shift because we have never as a society catered to the most cowardly before. Personal responsibility used to mean if you cared about something it was on you, now its shifted to forcing it on other people. This is really antithetical to western values.
- xsmasher 5y ago
  "Never" is wrong. Unless you mean never until the seatbelt mandates of the 90's. Or MADD in the 80's. Or the 70's when OSHA reared its ugly head. Or the 50's with anti-litter laws and campaigns. Or prohibition in the 20's. Or never until the FDA was founded? A hundred years is a little late to complain about this "big shift." Acting in the collective self-interest is not new at all, unless you completely ignore history.
- munk-a 5y ago
  I'm still waiting for the M1 Abrams I ordered to show up on my door step - I can't comprehend why anyone would object to me commuting to work in a tank. Freedom is a process of give and take - the only way to have perfect freedom is to deny freedom from everyone else (since you're declaring your choices more important than those around you). We (I assume you mean America - where I was born and raised but since emigrated from) have never had unlimited freedom - rights and privileges have always been limited by the interests of others from traffic laws to gun ownership and even to mere communication. I will say that the US has tried quite hard to be on the side of individual freedom over societal freedom and health whenever possible (which has led to some side effects) - that certainly can't be argued. But the US is not an anarchist state and the presence of laws - even of encoded privileges - dictates the lack of full freedom. There's another level to consider that is a bit more rare in discussions like this though. You don't have the personal value to be held responsible for your actions - if you happen to be the person who mutates a new strain of the virus over irresponsible actions then it sucks for the rest of us since you're judgement proof. When it comes to the trillions of dollars in lost economic productivity that you should be on the hook for we can't collect even a fraction of that.
- ta2987 5y ago
  Yeah, modern civilization was founded on the inalienable right to get other people sick.
ibejoeb 5y ago
That's a strange desire because what does it matter? If you were worried, you would have gotten vaccinated, and unless you don't believe the vaccine works, you would be protected. It's also something that is impossible to know because you don't have the right to inspect someone's medical records.
- not2b 5y ago
  If a large pool of people refuse the vaccine, they will eventually breed variants that make the vaccine less effective. To wipe out Covid, we need enough people vaccinated so that the disease dies out (doesn't have to be everyone), because the virus can't find enough new people to infect. And a small fraction of people who are vaccinated won't develop a proper immune response, so they are still vulnerable. Nevertheless, once enough people are vaccinated it will die out.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    We will never wipe out covid, because it also is transmitted in a couple species of animals. We'd have to kill/vaccinate bats, civets, minks, etc.
- chillacy 5y ago
  Vaccines aren't 100% effective, otherwise it would be no problem if, say, parents decided not to vaccinate their children for schools.

andrew_v4 5y ago

It's a big shift because we have never as a society catered to the most cowardly before. Personal responsibility used to mean if you cared about something it was on you, now its shifted to forcing it on other people. This is really antithetical to western values.

xsmasher 5y ago
"Never" is wrong. Unless you mean never until the seatbelt mandates of the 90's. Or MADD in the 80's. Or the 70's when OSHA reared its ugly head. Or the 50's with anti-litter laws and campaigns. Or prohibition in the 20's. Or never until the FDA was founded? A hundred years is a little late to complain about this "big shift." Acting in the collective self-interest is not new at all, unless you completely ignore history.
munk-a 5y ago
I'm still waiting for the M1 Abrams I ordered to show up on my door step - I can't comprehend why anyone would object to me commuting to work in a tank. Freedom is a process of give and take - the only way to have perfect freedom is to deny freedom from everyone else (since you're declaring your choices more important than those around you). We (I assume you mean America - where I was born and raised but since emigrated from) have never had unlimited freedom - rights and privileges have always been limited by the interests of others from traffic laws to gun ownership and even to mere communication. I will say that the US has tried quite hard to be on the side of individual freedom over societal freedom and health whenever possible (which has led to some side effects) - that certainly can't be argued. But the US is not an anarchist state and the presence of laws - even of encoded privileges - dictates the lack of full freedom. There's another level to consider that is a bit more rare in discussions like this though. You don't have the personal value to be held responsible for your actions - if you happen to be the person who mutates a new strain of the virus over irresponsible actions then it sucks for the rest of us since you're judgement proof. When it comes to the trillions of dollars in lost economic productivity that you should be on the hook for we can't collect even a fraction of that.
ta2987 5y ago
Yeah, modern civilization was founded on the inalienable right to get other people sick.

ibejoeb 5y ago

That's a strange desire because what does it matter? If you were worried, you would have gotten vaccinated, and unless you don't believe the vaccine works, you would be protected. It's also something that is impossible to know because you don't have the right to inspect someone's medical records.

not2b 5y ago
If a large pool of people refuse the vaccine, they will eventually breed variants that make the vaccine less effective. To wipe out Covid, we need enough people vaccinated so that the disease dies out (doesn't have to be everyone), because the virus can't find enough new people to infect. And a small fraction of people who are vaccinated won't develop a proper immune response, so they are still vulnerable. Nevertheless, once enough people are vaccinated it will die out.
- mikem170 5y ago
  We will never wipe out covid, because it also is transmitted in a couple species of animals. We'd have to kill/vaccinate bats, civets, minks, etc.
chillacy 5y ago
Vaccines aren't 100% effective, otherwise it would be no problem if, say, parents decided not to vaccinate their children for schools.