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> I don't transact car. It could be taken from you with 'no recourse'. > Code is law. No it isn't > It's not stealing if you take it from a smart contract.

> I don't transact car. It could be taken from you with 'no recourse'. > Code is law. No it isn't > It's not stealing if you take it from a smart contract. Like a DAO. I'm sure the illegality of their actions is of big consolation to every Turkish person right now. I hear there was an exit scam. What kind of goal post moving nonsense is this? First you were talking about basic general cryptocurrency, now you are on to exotic ethereum specific stuff for some reason instead of confronting what you said before. > It's not what anyone wants. I just explained why that isn't true. Repeating your assertions doesn't mean anything. > That's why Visa offers chargebacks and all issuers have fraud departments. Visa is not a currency. There are debit cards that can be recharged with cryptocurrencies. This has been explained to you many times. > when was the last time you heard any customer gripe at the merchant, "man, I really really wish I couldn't charge you back in the event this product isn't as advertised and you refuse to help me out -- what a nightmare! When was the last time you heard someone say they wished transactions would take a month instead of a few minutes? Also again, credit cards are not currencies. Credit cards are a service and they add 3% on to everything you buy from their transaction fees. Crypto currencies and credit cards can both be used to make transactions electronically, that single overlapping use case does not make them 1:1 substitutions for each other. > Do people in hyperinflationary countries use it? Called it. Also, yes they do. For all the volatility of cryptocurrencies, in places like venezuela, argentina zimbabwe, russia and many other places that have had huge currency crisies, having something volatile is better than having something rapidly diminishing. > Worse, in the sense it comes with a $50 transaction fee, which is a months salary in a lot of these places. Bitcoin is useless at this point. Any cryptocurrency besides bitcoin and ethereum fill these roles. Bitcoin was intentionally crippled, the technology obviously works. > Not to mention the value of the crypto assets these Turks held dropped to 0 I think even you understand that having the assets you have a claim to stolen is not the same as having those assets 'drop to 0'. > And yet it works great. It works great for you, but you don't live in a country with massive inflation or banking controls. You don't need to send remittances. You aren't trying to get paid by someone in another country for freelance work. > Because intermediaries add value. That's why we pay them. This is not an argument anyone made in a general sense. > Almost like it's not something people need. Someone in Greenland might say that no one needs air conditioning and someone in Malaysia might say that no one needs a furnace to heat their house. They would both be exceptionally selfish and myopic positions to take. It is also objectively not true.

arcticbull 6y ago
> I don't transact car. - It could be taken from you with 'no recourse'. Yeah, no, that's simply not true. There's lo-jacks, there's DOT owned cameras, there's the police. There's a ton of recourse afforded by the legal system. You know, with the police and the judges and the whatnot? It's asinine to make this argument. > Code is law. - No it isn't. Well you should tell the Ethereum foundation lol. > What kind of goal post moving nonsense is this? First you were talking about basic general cryptocurrency, now you are on to exotic ethereum specific stuff for some reason instead of confronting what you said before. "Code is law" is a smart contract expression, I'm sure you know that. As for stealing crypto, it's a question of possession being 9/10ths of the law for an asset class designed to circumvent efforts to reclaim it or prevent its transaction. > I just explained why that isn't true. Repeating your assertions doesn't mean anything. You explained nothing. > Visa is not a currency. There are debit cards that can be recharged with cryptocurrencies. This has been explained to you many times. Because it's a really strange distinction to make for a unit that marries the two together. Sorry, if you build a hybrid of a currency and a transaction system you have to defend its role as both. > When was the last time you heard someone say they wished transactions would take a month instead of a few minutes? Also again, credit cards are not currencies. Credit cards are a service and they add 3% on to everything you buy from their transaction fees. I have no idea what kind of transaction you're talking about, and it's clear you don't either. Anything that takes a while is simply factored via lending. This is not a problem that exists in reality, just contrived. That 3%, by the way, exists primarily in the US. Visanet takes about 0.1%, the rest is passed on to the issuing bank where it offsets the cost of loan origination and servicing, and paying rewards to customers. The interchange rate varies by card type. This also pays for insurances, and things like chargebacks. Things customers want. In the EU it's 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit, and they just don't have rewards programs. Australia is also a capped interchange market. By the way, acceptance of credit increases average ticket size for merchants about 20%, and reduces their costs associated with managing cash. This is a disingenuous argument based on a total lack of understanding of the modern financial system. > Called it. Also, yes they do. For all the volatility of cryptocurrencies, in places like venezuela, argentina zimbabwe, russia and many other places that have had huge currency crisies, having something volatile is better than having something rapidly diminishing. I'm sorry but they don't. The countries with the largest crypto penetration are Nigeria (where it's now illegal and dropping) and the US. It's less than 5% in the US and less than 1% globally. It's been 13 years. There's high school students younger than Bitcoin. Nobody in these countries is interested in paying a months salary in transaction fees for a coffee - or to dump their live savings into an easily scammable store of value that fluctuates 20% day over day. [citaiton needed] on your part. > Bitcoin is useless at this point. Any cryptocurrency besides bitcoin and ethereum fill these roles. Bitcoin was intentionally crippled, the technology obviously works. Competitors are only cheap because nobody uses them. This is the crypto way. > I think even you understand that having the assets you have a claim to stolen is not the same as having those assets 'drop to 0'. It is if the intrinsic characteristics of the currency are the reason you no longer have it. Trustlessness, censorship resistance, decentralization - this is why $2B could flee in the first place. And be fenced. You can't do that with traditional currencies. > It works great for you, but you don't live in a country with massive inflation or banking controls. You don't need to send remittances. You aren't trying to get paid by someone in another country for freelance work. Sure, I do, thanks to TransferWise Borderless, something thats "been explained to you many times" to borrow a turn of phrase. > Someone in Greenland might say that no one needs air conditioning and someone in Malaysia might say that no one needs a furnace to heat their house. They would both be exceptionally selfish and myopic positions to take. It is also objectively not true. And everyone would say we don't need to spend a country of power so some ancaps can trade spreadsheet cells :)

arcticbull 6y ago

> I don't transact car. - It could be taken from you with 'no recourse'. Yeah, no, that's simply not true. There's lo-jacks, there's DOT owned cameras, there's the police. There's a ton of recourse afforded by the legal system. You know, with the police and the judges and the whatnot? It's asinine to make this argument. > Code is law. - No it isn't. Well you should tell the Ethereum foundation lol. > What kind of goal post moving nonsense is this? First you were talking about basic general cryptocurrency, now you are on to exotic ethereum specific stuff for some reason instead of confronting what you said before. "Code is law" is a smart contract expression, I'm sure you know that. As for stealing crypto, it's a question of possession being 9/10ths of the law for an asset class designed to circumvent efforts to reclaim it or prevent its transaction. > I just explained why that isn't true. Repeating your assertions doesn't mean anything. You explained nothing. > Visa is not a currency. There are debit cards that can be recharged with cryptocurrencies. This has been explained to you many times. Because it's a really strange distinction to make for a unit that marries the two together. Sorry, if you build a hybrid of a currency and a transaction system you have to defend its role as both. > When was the last time you heard someone say they wished transactions would take a month instead of a few minutes? Also again, credit cards are not currencies. Credit cards are a service and they add 3% on to everything you buy from their transaction fees. I have no idea what kind of transaction you're talking about, and it's clear you don't either. Anything that takes a while is simply factored via lending. This is not a problem that exists in reality, just contrived. That 3%, by the way, exists primarily in the US. Visanet takes about 0.1%, the rest is passed on to the issuing bank where it offsets the cost of loan origination and servicing, and paying rewards to customers. The interchange rate varies by card type. This also pays for insurances, and things like chargebacks. Things customers want. In the EU it's 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit, and they just don't have rewards programs. Australia is also a capped interchange market. By the way, acceptance of credit increases average ticket size for merchants about 20%, and reduces their costs associated with managing cash. This is a disingenuous argument based on a total lack of understanding of the modern financial system. > Called it. Also, yes they do. For all the volatility of cryptocurrencies, in places like venezuela, argentina zimbabwe, russia and many other places that have had huge currency crisies, having something volatile is better than having something rapidly diminishing. I'm sorry but they don't. The countries with the largest crypto penetration are Nigeria (where it's now illegal and dropping) and the US. It's less than 5% in the US and less than 1% globally. It's been 13 years. There's high school students younger than Bitcoin. Nobody in these countries is interested in paying a months salary in transaction fees for a coffee - or to dump their live savings into an easily scammable store of value that fluctuates 20% day over day. [citaiton needed] on your part. > Bitcoin is useless at this point. Any cryptocurrency besides bitcoin and ethereum fill these roles. Bitcoin was intentionally crippled, the technology obviously works. Competitors are only cheap because nobody uses them. This is the crypto way. > I think even you understand that having the assets you have a claim to stolen is not the same as having those assets 'drop to 0'. It is if the intrinsic characteristics of the currency are the reason you no longer have it. Trustlessness, censorship resistance, decentralization - this is why $2B could flee in the first place. And be fenced. You can't do that with traditional currencies. > It works great for you, but you don't live in a country with massive inflation or banking controls. You don't need to send remittances. You aren't trying to get paid by someone in another country for freelance work. Sure, I do, thanks to TransferWise Borderless, something thats "been explained to you many times" to borrow a turn of phrase. > Someone in Greenland might say that no one needs air conditioning and someone in Malaysia might say that no one needs a furnace to heat their house. They would both be exceptionally selfish and myopic positions to take. It is also objectively not true. And everyone would say we don't need to spend a country of power so some ancaps can trade spreadsheet cells :)