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Well you made my point. Your country is not going downhill because of one or the other, it's because both can't stand each other any more. A republican will wri

Well you made my point. Your country is not going downhill because of one or the other, it's because both can't stand each other any more. A republican will write a similar story about Hillary. Have a nice life over there people, I hope sincerely that things will change.

jfengel 6y ago
Thank you; I do take your last sentence as genuinely sincere. Regardless of the cause, it's an unfortunate situation. I am making the assertion that "it's because of both sides" is actually part of the problem. I don't believe that a reasonable person would look at the 2016 candidates and conclude that they showed hostility equally. I believe that one side is weaponizing that instinct to draw compromises. You're certainly correct that a Republican would write a similar story about Hillary Clinton, but I can only leave it to your judgment about whether that argument has equal merit. You're absolutely right that we can't stand each other, but if they're insistent on not standing me regardless of what I do, it does not improve the situation for me alone to grow ever more accommodating. I understand the impulse to do so, and engaged it for many years. I've come to believe that it has only allowed the problem to worsen, because it allows increasingly irrational people to demand more and more. I believe that 2016 marks a turning point where no reasonable observer could disagree that one side's irrational people are in charge, and that's not true for the other. So I disagree with your assertion that it's not one side or the other, and the ability of the other side to claim it's me shouldn't be taken at face value. Neither should my argument, of course. But the existence of two opposite arguments doesn't make them equal. That's specious, and if you want to come to a deeper understanding, you should suspend the hypothesis that both sides are equally wrong. Maybe you'll come to it again through a different path, and if so you should try to convince me.
- teekert 6y ago
  I agree with much of this. But there may be republicans out there that do not like every aspect of Trump, yet agree even less with the democratic candidate. Such a person may have good reasons for the way she or he voted and may be the way for you to learn to appreciate some aspects of “the other side”. It’s not black and white, your “two party system” forces a choice. I bet many people find what they choose suboptimal if they are being honest. But they may not tell a hostile person from the other side that does not even want to dine with them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - krapp 6y ago
    >But there may be republicans out there that do not like every aspect of Trump, yet agree even less with the democratic candidate. Sure, they wanted the Supreme Court stacked with conservatives, a hardline stance against China, a protectionist trade agenda focused on domestic manufacturing ... we've heard the apologetics. But if you're in one of the demographics that have spent the last four years living in fear and dread of what the social and political consequences of Trumpism and alt-right populism might represent, all you know is that those reasonable Republicans are willing to pay for their agenda with your safety, freedom and sometimes blood. They may not hate you as much as the extremists, but they'll tolerate the extremists all the same to get what they want. That doesn't make them look sympathetic. The extremist elements that Trump's candidacy and presidency brought to the surface had been simmering in the Republican party for years, and they did nothing about it. There was no grassroots push within the Conservative movement or the Republican party to disavow the alt-right or white supremacist agenda working its way into the body politic, and far from separating their policy positions from Trump's poisonous beliefs and rhetoric, Republicans embraced them because to do otherwise - to even admit their house was in disorder - would be a show of weakness to the enemy. And they still won't admit they made a mistake. The GOP would rather stand behind the woman who believes in Jewish Space Lasers and the QAnon agenda than risk loosing Trumpists in 2024 and finding a new, less insane direction for the party. Enough is enough already. Republicans can't have their cake and eat it too, they can't burn their bridges and cross them again, they can't ask for reason, tolerance and sympathy while doubling down on their support for the least reasonable, least tolerant and least sympathetic Republican since Nixon.
    - teekert 6y ago
      It went too far. And although your attitude may be excusable and perhaps even rational, it is for sure not helping to get your country into a better state. Maybe it now seems impossible but the road to a nicer country starts by forgiving and then understanding. And then civil discourse, perhaps over dinner ;)

jfengel 6y ago

Thank you; I do take your last sentence as genuinely sincere. Regardless of the cause, it's an unfortunate situation. I am making the assertion that "it's because of both sides" is actually part of the problem. I don't believe that a reasonable person would look at the 2016 candidates and conclude that they showed hostility equally. I believe that one side is weaponizing that instinct to draw compromises. You're certainly correct that a Republican would write a similar story about Hillary Clinton, but I can only leave it to your judgment about whether that argument has equal merit. You're absolutely right that we can't stand each other, but if they're insistent on not standing me regardless of what I do, it does not improve the situation for me alone to grow ever more accommodating. I understand the impulse to do so, and engaged it for many years. I've come to believe that it has only allowed the problem to worsen, because it allows increasingly irrational people to demand more and more. I believe that 2016 marks a turning point where no reasonable observer could disagree that one side's irrational people are in charge, and that's not true for the other. So I disagree with your assertion that it's not one side or the other, and the ability of the other side to claim it's me shouldn't be taken at face value. Neither should my argument, of course. But the existence of two opposite arguments doesn't make them equal. That's specious, and if you want to come to a deeper understanding, you should suspend the hypothesis that both sides are equally wrong. Maybe you'll come to it again through a different path, and if so you should try to convince me.

teekert 6y ago
I agree with much of this. But there may be republicans out there that do not like every aspect of Trump, yet agree even less with the democratic candidate. Such a person may have good reasons for the way she or he voted and may be the way for you to learn to appreciate some aspects of “the other side”. It’s not black and white, your “two party system” forces a choice. I bet many people find what they choose suboptimal if they are being honest. But they may not tell a hostile person from the other side that does not even want to dine with them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- krapp 6y ago
  >But there may be republicans out there that do not like every aspect of Trump, yet agree even less with the democratic candidate. Sure, they wanted the Supreme Court stacked with conservatives, a hardline stance against China, a protectionist trade agenda focused on domestic manufacturing ... we've heard the apologetics. But if you're in one of the demographics that have spent the last four years living in fear and dread of what the social and political consequences of Trumpism and alt-right populism might represent, all you know is that those reasonable Republicans are willing to pay for their agenda with your safety, freedom and sometimes blood. They may not hate you as much as the extremists, but they'll tolerate the extremists all the same to get what they want. That doesn't make them look sympathetic. The extremist elements that Trump's candidacy and presidency brought to the surface had been simmering in the Republican party for years, and they did nothing about it. There was no grassroots push within the Conservative movement or the Republican party to disavow the alt-right or white supremacist agenda working its way into the body politic, and far from separating their policy positions from Trump's poisonous beliefs and rhetoric, Republicans embraced them because to do otherwise - to even admit their house was in disorder - would be a show of weakness to the enemy. And they still won't admit they made a mistake. The GOP would rather stand behind the woman who believes in Jewish Space Lasers and the QAnon agenda than risk loosing Trumpists in 2024 and finding a new, less insane direction for the party. Enough is enough already. Republicans can't have their cake and eat it too, they can't burn their bridges and cross them again, they can't ask for reason, tolerance and sympathy while doubling down on their support for the least reasonable, least tolerant and least sympathetic Republican since Nixon.
  - teekert 6y ago
    It went too far. And although your attitude may be excusable and perhaps even rational, it is for sure not helping to get your country into a better state. Maybe it now seems impossible but the road to a nicer country starts by forgiving and then understanding. And then civil discourse, perhaps over dinner ;)