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Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the avera

Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess.

slibhb 5y ago
> Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? Uh, they're all humans? > As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. If you don't think it's plausible that abject suffering would lead someone to suicide I don't know what to say. You only want to talk about "purchasing power" but my whole point is that there are lots of other factors. You can talk about purchasing power but you shouldn't dismiss people talking about those other factors. > And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess. ...and personality differences make it difficult to compare across individual humans. None of these studies are controlling for all relevant factors, most of which are probably unknown or at least unmeasured.
- pmiller2 5y ago
  If "they're all human" is all you can come up with, I think that essentially proves my point. Cultural factors are likely to be difficult to detangle from the whole mess of what's going on. As far as abject suffering goes, I agree, that probably doesn't help the suicide rate. But, what I've been getting at is this: you keep referring to "absolute poverty," and I'm telling you I don't think "absolute poverty" is it. I think it's plain old poverty, which is relative poverty, which has to do with what one's local purchasing power is. "Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. In other words, add all those cultural factors on, and what an American might want to end it all over, a Pakistani (to pick a random example) might not. If you did a study with 10 countries, then you'd have 45 pairs to consider, and, like I said, that gets messy quickly. This is roughly why I suspect there aren't any good studies that do what you suggest. Almost all the studies of this nature concentrate on a single country, and I suspect it's because the research itself would be difficult, but, also that it would be extremely tough to make any cross-cultural conclusions, which is what you want to do if you want to know what makes "humans" want to kill themselves.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    >"Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. I don't agree that all suffering is relative. I don't believe that Pakistanis experience starvation less severely than Americans. Maybe human suffering is relative to being a human. I understand that you think relative poverty causes suicide. That's not important to my argument which (following from the original commenter's) is "there are other interesting variables that affect suicide besides relative poverty". You keep bringing up how culture is hard to control for. But a study of only South Korea doesn't control for culture. The correlation between relative poverty and suicide is probably higher in SK for cultural reasons (which is, of course, why SK was chosen). My point is that culture (among other things) is an interesting factor in suicide. It could be studied too. It's fine to look for the effect of relative poverty within a country but it's also interesting to look for other things, like culture and absolute poverty and levels of industrialization.

slibhb 5y ago

> Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? Uh, they're all humans? > As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. If you don't think it's plausible that abject suffering would lead someone to suicide I don't know what to say. You only want to talk about "purchasing power" but my whole point is that there are lots of other factors. You can talk about purchasing power but you shouldn't dismiss people talking about those other factors. > And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess. ...and personality differences make it difficult to compare across individual humans. None of these studies are controlling for all relevant factors, most of which are probably unknown or at least unmeasured.

pmiller2 5y ago
If "they're all human" is all you can come up with, I think that essentially proves my point. Cultural factors are likely to be difficult to detangle from the whole mess of what's going on. As far as abject suffering goes, I agree, that probably doesn't help the suicide rate. But, what I've been getting at is this: you keep referring to "absolute poverty," and I'm telling you I don't think "absolute poverty" is it. I think it's plain old poverty, which is relative poverty, which has to do with what one's local purchasing power is. "Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. In other words, add all those cultural factors on, and what an American might want to end it all over, a Pakistani (to pick a random example) might not. If you did a study with 10 countries, then you'd have 45 pairs to consider, and, like I said, that gets messy quickly. This is roughly why I suspect there aren't any good studies that do what you suggest. Almost all the studies of this nature concentrate on a single country, and I suspect it's because the research itself would be difficult, but, also that it would be extremely tough to make any cross-cultural conclusions, which is what you want to do if you want to know what makes "humans" want to kill themselves.
- slibhb 5y ago
  >"Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. I don't agree that all suffering is relative. I don't believe that Pakistanis experience starvation less severely than Americans. Maybe human suffering is relative to being a human. I understand that you think relative poverty causes suicide. That's not important to my argument which (following from the original commenter's) is "there are other interesting variables that affect suicide besides relative poverty". You keep bringing up how culture is hard to control for. But a study of only South Korea doesn't control for culture. The correlation between relative poverty and suicide is probably higher in SK for cultural reasons (which is, of course, why SK was chosen). My point is that culture (among other things) is an interesting factor in suicide. It could be studied too. It's fine to look for the effect of relative poverty within a country but it's also interesting to look for other things, like culture and absolute poverty and levels of industrialization.