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What makes you think you can compare across countries? Why do you think "absolute" poverty is important? My buying power isn't materially reduced simply becau

What makes you think you can compare across countries? Why do you think "absolute" poverty is important? My buying power isn't materially reduced simply because another country might have a higher per capita income than the one I live in.

slibhb 5y ago
If you want to ask the question "what causes suicide?" you have to generalize. It seems strange to suggest that you can't generalize between countries. You might as well say "how can you compare Tim's suicide to Susan's suicide, they lived totally different lives". Are we only allowed to compare suicides in twin studies? It's plausible that absolute poverty would be the main factor in suicide, i.e. privation and resulting suffering would drive people to suicide. Though plausible, that doesn't seem to be the case, which is interesting. Glancing at the data on wikipedia, there seem to be cultural and religious factors at play here that dwarf economic factors (not to mention sex...). Muslim countries have low rates of suicide. Japan and Korea have high rates of suicide. It's totally fine to look for correlations along economic lines but that's a lot more to the story and it isn't wrong to bring that up.
- pmiller2 5y ago
  Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? Uh, they're all humans? > As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. If you don't think it's plausible that abject suffering would lead someone to suicide I don't know what to say. You only want to talk about "purchasing power" but my whole point is that there are lots of other factors. You can talk about purchasing power but you shouldn't dismiss people talking about those other factors. > And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess. ...and personality differences make it difficult to compare across individual humans. None of these studies are controlling for all relevant factors, most of which are probably unknown or at least unmeasured.
    - pmiller2 5y ago
      If "they're all human" is all you can come up with, I think that essentially proves my point. Cultural factors are likely to be difficult to detangle from the whole mess of what's going on. As far as abject suffering goes, I agree, that probably doesn't help the suicide rate. But, what I've been getting at is this: you keep referring to "absolute poverty," and I'm telling you I don't think "absolute poverty" is it. I think it's plain old poverty, which is relative poverty, which has to do with what one's local purchasing power is. "Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. In other words, add all those cultural factors on, and what an American might want to end it all over, a Pakistani (to pick a random example) might not. If you did a study with 10 countries, then you'd have 45 pairs to consider, and, like I said, that gets messy quickly. This is roughly why I suspect there aren't any good studies that do what you suggest. Almost all the studies of this nature concentrate on a single country, and I suspect it's because the research itself would be difficult, but, also that it would be extremely tough to make any cross-cultural conclusions, which is what you want to do if you want to know what makes "humans" want to kill themselves.

slibhb 5y ago

If you want to ask the question "what causes suicide?" you have to generalize. It seems strange to suggest that you can't generalize between countries. You might as well say "how can you compare Tim's suicide to Susan's suicide, they lived totally different lives". Are we only allowed to compare suicides in twin studies? It's plausible that absolute poverty would be the main factor in suicide, i.e. privation and resulting suffering would drive people to suicide. Though plausible, that doesn't seem to be the case, which is interesting. Glancing at the data on wikipedia, there seem to be cultural and religious factors at play here that dwarf economic factors (not to mention sex...). Muslim countries have low rates of suicide. Japan and Korea have high rates of suicide. It's totally fine to look for correlations along economic lines but that's a lot more to the story and it isn't wrong to bring that up.

pmiller2 5y ago
Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess.
- slibhb 5y ago
  > Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? Uh, they're all humans? > As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. If you don't think it's plausible that abject suffering would lead someone to suicide I don't know what to say. You only want to talk about "purchasing power" but my whole point is that there are lots of other factors. You can talk about purchasing power but you shouldn't dismiss people talking about those other factors. > And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess. ...and personality differences make it difficult to compare across individual humans. None of these studies are controlling for all relevant factors, most of which are probably unknown or at least unmeasured.
  - pmiller2 5y ago
    If "they're all human" is all you can come up with, I think that essentially proves my point. Cultural factors are likely to be difficult to detangle from the whole mess of what's going on. As far as abject suffering goes, I agree, that probably doesn't help the suicide rate. But, what I've been getting at is this: you keep referring to "absolute poverty," and I'm telling you I don't think "absolute poverty" is it. I think it's plain old poverty, which is relative poverty, which has to do with what one's local purchasing power is. "Abject suffering" is relative, too. What you might call "abject suffering," someone in another country might just call "Tuesday." Conversely, someone used to living very well who ends up losing everything financially might feel extreme despair. Think 2008, or 1929. In other words, add all those cultural factors on, and what an American might want to end it all over, a Pakistani (to pick a random example) might not. If you did a study with 10 countries, then you'd have 45 pairs to consider, and, like I said, that gets messy quickly. This is roughly why I suspect there aren't any good studies that do what you suggest. Almost all the studies of this nature concentrate on a single country, and I suspect it's because the research itself would be difficult, but, also that it would be extremely tough to make any cross-cultural conclusions, which is what you want to do if you want to know what makes "humans" want to kill themselves.