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Google is okay for research on how other people have achieved something. But generally these days I am of the opinion it just teaches you bad habits. I really

Google is okay for research on how other people have achieved something. But generally these days I am of the opinion it just teaches you bad habits. I really wish people would just read the docs instead of just googling. I am working on a large typescript solution and almost every error in the application is due to the original developers not reading the docs and instead just googling stuff from stack overflow. Also I am against the promotion of google generally. The search engine isn't that much better than Duck Duck Go anymore (especially for dev stuff). Also we should all know the problems with Google's defacto monopoly on search.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
secondcoming 5y ago
Indeed, the older SO gets the less helpful it becomes. I'm not sure what they can do about it.
xxpor 5y ago
Google/DDG is usually the fastest way to find the docs. Documentation sites are usually terrible for discovery.
- net_greybeard 5y ago
  It is fine for finding the docs. However people use it to find quick, frequently out of date or just wrong solutions on the net. For example. If you are using the babel compiler and its plugins you will fine lots of answers that are wrong on Stack overflow because they were written when Babel 6 was the major version was popular. Whereas reading the docs (the doc site is quite good IMO) will get you the correct answer every time but comes much lower in search results. Using the babel 6 suggestions can lead you to into some sort of NPM hell.
rajasimon 5y ago
I was thought about creating a documentation search engine for the everyday frameworks. It uses the natural language to match the pattern in the docs to give the best results immediately.
lostcolony 5y ago
"Just read the docs" depends on how good the docs are, and how discoverable they are. For instance, searching for "Java read a file", I find a bunch of examples. And they mostly are good enough, call out when they aren't, and provide useful links. Meanwhile, navigating Oracle's website is a nightmare. https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/io/file.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/io/file.ht... exists, and is actually pretty helpful, but the only way I was able to find it was by Googling "oracle java read a file". Searching Oracle's own doc site (itself hard to find for a given version of Java) with the same string (i.e., 'read a file') turned up nothing useful ( https://docs.oracle.com/search/?q=read+a+file&category=java&product=en%2Fjava%2Fjavase%2F16 https://docs.oracle.com/search/?q=read+a+file&category=java&... )
- net_greybeard 5y ago
  Obviously. If the docs are garbage then you are going to have to find alternatives. However these days devs have never had it better.
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    Laughs in shitty Oracle docs.
    - net_greybeard 5y ago
      I've worked in a lot of places where there were no docs and nobody knew how any worked. So be thankful that you have some docs.
      - Ygg2 5y ago
        And I've worked with auto generated meta code in Java 1.3. In practice, difference between it and Oracle docs was negligible. Hell. Their auto-gen code was more self explanatory than Oracle Java Docs.
        lostcolony 5y ago
kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 5y ago
Most docs just give you the primitives but don't explain HOW TO DO SOMETHING. I can't even count how many times I am learning some new thing and I have to find a tutorial on medium to figure out how to get something to work because its either undocumented or you need inside knowledge.
pizza234 5y ago
> I really wish people would just read the docs instead of just googling. I am working on a large typescript solution and almost every error in the application is due to the original developers not reading the docs and instead just googling stuff from stack overflow. It's a bit more complicated than that. I do read the docs, but using the web is essential for me, for a few reasons: - nowadays, a dev doesn't work on an area that can be included in a single book; one touches several different frameworks, and reading that docs for all of them can be just unfeasible - the docs may not be good; you may be surprised that even the Linux API doc can be really bad - there may be issues that require workarounds that are not described in the docs - best practices may not be obvious even when reading the docs - one can't assume that in a big doc, it's obvious where the solution for a problem is, which may force to read way more than expected I think a dev can "google more than RTFM'ing" and still produce a good solution, if they intend to - that is, to process the information rather than blindly copy/pasting. Thinking about it, the major problem seem to me unprocessed copy/paste, rather than "googling instead of RTFM'ing".
- net_greybeard 5y ago
  > best practices may not be obvious even when reading the docs I am right now working on a project because of the googling stuff has led to the worst practices at the moment. I have worked on many projects where people haven't bothered reading the docs and I have seen the same pattern for over a decade. Whereas if they had read the docs the best practices would have been immediately apparent. So that argument hold no water with me. > one can't assume that in a big doc, it's obvious where the solution for a problem is, which may force to read way more than expected I want people reading more. Which was part of my overall point. People don't read enough. They go for the quick solution (which is copy and paste from stack overflow) produce something which is usually quite bad and then you normally have to redo that work because the moment you try to change something (due to changing requirements) the whole thing falls to pieces. I've been guilty of it too. It is a bad habit that is produced through laziness. I literally wrote docs at a previous place and people kept on asking for help on IM. I wrote the document so I wouldn't have to answer the same questions many times. People getting into bad habits and not looking for or writing docs literally causes a hell of a lot more issues that you would see at first glance. > Thinking about it, the major problem seem to me unprocessed copy/paste, rather than "googling instead of RTFM'ing". I would rather have a unprocessed copy and paste then what you get in reality which is a "copy pasta". There are minor bits changed which make it difficult to recognise where it may have originally come from, which makes it difficult to know the original developer's intent.
v8dev123 5y ago
DDG uses Bing.
justicezyx 5y ago
Reading the docs... I cannot offer that to the users of my own docs, because I know how outdated it was...
- falcolas 5y ago
  Sounds like a problem... For you. If you can't keep your docs up to date, how up to date do you think Google's results are?
spike021 5y ago
As with anything, everyone has their own style of learning. Yes, a large portion of developers just copy/paste from SO. However, many people also use the results of what they find on Google to learn concepts that the actual docs for just aren't that good.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  I wish I had the time to learn everything I copy from SO/SE. Sometimes when you need to get something done and you find something that works as is, it is easier to test it and move on to something more important. We don't have infinite time.
  - username90 5y ago
    Often it is much faster to learn things properly and get it right rather than trying to figure out why the stuff you copy pasted doesn't work together.
  - net_greybeard 5y ago
    If you don't understand how something works you shouldn't be including it in your project. I regularly reject PRs because of this.
dopidopHN 5y ago
I agree on the first point, allocating time to design the expected outcome is also key. But on the second point, I find myself having to use the g! Operator of ddg to get the result I need. Recently it was looking for a workaround I knew existed for a documented defect. ( weirdly not documented on the bug tracker of the library ... go figure ) Google gave me the result, Duck Duck go was serving me the doc or the bug tracker. Hmm. Actually maybe Google just remembered that from my previous search.
logicslave 5y ago
I came here to say this. After so much experience, I just learn the technology. It saves so much time.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

secondcoming 5y ago

Indeed, the older SO gets the less helpful it becomes. I'm not sure what they can do about it.

xxpor 5y ago

Google/DDG is usually the fastest way to find the docs. Documentation sites are usually terrible for discovery.

net_greybeard 5y ago
It is fine for finding the docs. However people use it to find quick, frequently out of date or just wrong solutions on the net. For example. If you are using the babel compiler and its plugins you will fine lots of answers that are wrong on Stack overflow because they were written when Babel 6 was the major version was popular. Whereas reading the docs (the doc site is quite good IMO) will get you the correct answer every time but comes much lower in search results. Using the babel 6 suggestions can lead you to into some sort of NPM hell.

rajasimon 5y ago

I was thought about creating a documentation search engine for the everyday frameworks. It uses the natural language to match the pattern in the docs to give the best results immediately.

lostcolony 5y ago

"Just read the docs" depends on how good the docs are, and how discoverable they are. For instance, searching for "Java read a file", I find a bunch of examples. And they mostly are good enough, call out when they aren't, and provide useful links. Meanwhile, navigating Oracle's website is a nightmare. https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/io/file.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/io/file.ht... exists, and is actually pretty helpful, but the only way I was able to find it was by Googling "oracle java read a file". Searching Oracle's own doc site (itself hard to find for a given version of Java) with the same string (i.e., 'read a file') turned up nothing useful ( https://docs.oracle.com/search/?q=read+a+file&category=java&product=en%2Fjava%2Fjavase%2F16 https://docs.oracle.com/search/?q=read+a+file&category=java&... )

net_greybeard 5y ago
Obviously. If the docs are garbage then you are going to have to find alternatives. However these days devs have never had it better.
- Ygg2 5y ago
  Laughs in shitty Oracle docs.
  - net_greybeard 5y ago
    I've worked in a lot of places where there were no docs and nobody knew how any worked. So be thankful that you have some docs.
    - Ygg2 5y ago
      And I've worked with auto generated meta code in Java 1.3. In practice, difference between it and Oracle docs was negligible. Hell. Their auto-gen code was more self explanatory than Oracle Java Docs.
      - lostcolony 5y ago

kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 5y ago

Most docs just give you the primitives but don't explain HOW TO DO SOMETHING. I can't even count how many times I am learning some new thing and I have to find a tutorial on medium to figure out how to get something to work because its either undocumented or you need inside knowledge.

pizza234 5y ago

> I really wish people would just read the docs instead of just googling. I am working on a large typescript solution and almost every error in the application is due to the original developers not reading the docs and instead just googling stuff from stack overflow. It's a bit more complicated than that. I do read the docs, but using the web is essential for me, for a few reasons: - nowadays, a dev doesn't work on an area that can be included in a single book; one touches several different frameworks, and reading that docs for all of them can be just unfeasible - the docs may not be good; you may be surprised that even the Linux API doc can be really bad - there may be issues that require workarounds that are not described in the docs - best practices may not be obvious even when reading the docs - one can't assume that in a big doc, it's obvious where the solution for a problem is, which may force to read way more than expected I think a dev can "google more than RTFM'ing" and still produce a good solution, if they intend to - that is, to process the information rather than blindly copy/pasting. Thinking about it, the major problem seem to me unprocessed copy/paste, rather than "googling instead of RTFM'ing".

net_greybeard 5y ago
> best practices may not be obvious even when reading the docs I am right now working on a project because of the googling stuff has led to the worst practices at the moment. I have worked on many projects where people haven't bothered reading the docs and I have seen the same pattern for over a decade. Whereas if they had read the docs the best practices would have been immediately apparent. So that argument hold no water with me. > one can't assume that in a big doc, it's obvious where the solution for a problem is, which may force to read way more than expected I want people reading more. Which was part of my overall point. People don't read enough. They go for the quick solution (which is copy and paste from stack overflow) produce something which is usually quite bad and then you normally have to redo that work because the moment you try to change something (due to changing requirements) the whole thing falls to pieces. I've been guilty of it too. It is a bad habit that is produced through laziness. I literally wrote docs at a previous place and people kept on asking for help on IM. I wrote the document so I wouldn't have to answer the same questions many times. People getting into bad habits and not looking for or writing docs literally causes a hell of a lot more issues that you would see at first glance. > Thinking about it, the major problem seem to me unprocessed copy/paste, rather than "googling instead of RTFM'ing". I would rather have a unprocessed copy and paste then what you get in reality which is a "copy pasta". There are minor bits changed which make it difficult to recognise where it may have originally come from, which makes it difficult to know the original developer's intent.

v8dev123 5y ago

DDG uses Bing.

justicezyx 5y ago

Reading the docs... I cannot offer that to the users of my own docs, because I know how outdated it was...

falcolas 5y ago
Sounds like a problem... For you. If you can't keep your docs up to date, how up to date do you think Google's results are?

spike021 5y ago

As with anything, everyone has their own style of learning. Yes, a large portion of developers just copy/paste from SO. However, many people also use the results of what they find on Google to learn concepts that the actual docs for just aren't that good.

koheripbal 5y ago
I wish I had the time to learn everything I copy from SO/SE. Sometimes when you need to get something done and you find something that works as is, it is easier to test it and move on to something more important. We don't have infinite time.
- username90 5y ago
  Often it is much faster to learn things properly and get it right rather than trying to figure out why the stuff you copy pasted doesn't work together.
- net_greybeard 5y ago
  If you don't understand how something works you shouldn't be including it in your project. I regularly reject PRs because of this.

dopidopHN 5y ago

I agree on the first point, allocating time to design the expected outcome is also key. But on the second point, I find myself having to use the g! Operator of ddg to get the result I need. Recently it was looking for a workaround I knew existed for a documented defect. ( weirdly not documented on the bug tracker of the library ... go figure ) Google gave me the result, Duck Duck go was serving me the doc or the bug tracker. Hmm. Actually maybe Google just remembered that from my previous search.

logicslave 5y ago

I came here to say this. After so much experience, I just learn the technology. It saves so much time.