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Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you a

Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? (Note that the rise of the Nordic welfare states in fact helped to smooth out some political polarization that was hurting those societies in the early 20th century.) In the past, neighbourly help often was refused to people like that. And what if you are a very introverted person who simply doesn’t want to interact with people outside your comfort zone? Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high.

zozbot234 6y ago
> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform Then you vote with your feet and move to a community that's friendlier to your values. That community will in turn have strong values of its own, which will help preserve a sense of high social trust within it. It's easy to move out to a competing community, because these quasi-tribal dynamics are inherently limited in scale to a max of about 150 individuals.
- devdas 5y ago
  Only if such a community exists and is welcoming to outsiders.
burntoutfire 6y ago
> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? I don't think people cared much about politics at all before modernity. If anything, the conflicts if any in Europe were centered around religion. As for the minorities, due to people's bigotry, perhaps sometimes they are indeed better off in an alienated modern world. > Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high. It's not a caricature. There are plenty of cases of people who needed help, but for some random stupid reason the bureaucracy refused it (I think even on this forum there is a girl from Germany whose parents died when she was young and, due to a glitch in the system, she was left on her own and forced to support herself via prostitution). The paper shufflers see the pointlessness of the rules they have to obey and the misery it causes (i.e. they knew the girl should get help, but the system just said they can't help her), which is a contributing factor into their potential depression.

zozbot234 6y ago

> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform Then you vote with your feet and move to a community that's friendlier to your values. That community will in turn have strong values of its own, which will help preserve a sense of high social trust within it. It's easy to move out to a competing community, because these quasi-tribal dynamics are inherently limited in scale to a max of about 150 individuals.

devdas 5y ago
Only if such a community exists and is welcoming to outsiders.

burntoutfire 6y ago

> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? I don't think people cared much about politics at all before modernity. If anything, the conflicts if any in Europe were centered around religion. As for the minorities, due to people's bigotry, perhaps sometimes they are indeed better off in an alienated modern world. > Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high. It's not a caricature. There are plenty of cases of people who needed help, but for some random stupid reason the bureaucracy refused it (I think even on this forum there is a girl from Germany whose parents died when she was young and, due to a glitch in the system, she was left on her own and forced to support herself via prostitution). The paper shufflers see the pointlessness of the rules they have to obey and the misery it causes (i.e. they knew the girl should get help, but the system just said they can't help her), which is a contributing factor into their potential depression.