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Personally, I would lump suicide attempts and succesful suicides together in cases like this. I don't think it matters whether or not they succeed, just the fac

by hn8788 6y ago

Personally, I would lump suicide attempts and succesful suicides together in cases like this. I don't think it matters whether or not they succeed, just the fact that things are bad enough that they're suicidal means the pandemic was handled poorly. I don't know if the data is available, but increased attempts with a decrease in successes could be because people were stuck at home where someone could find them before it was too late.

whimsicalism 6y ago
I think it definitely matters whether they succeed or not, not much more to say on that other than I disagree and your approach misses important policy changes that could dramatically reduce suicide by reducing the deadliness of attempts (failed attempts make it less likely you will try again). I don't think an increase in suicides a priori means the pandemic is handled poorly if it is the best we could do while stopping the 600k virus deaths from becoming 1.2 mill or whatever.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  It matters in one obvious substantive way, but there's a valid philosophical question as to whether person A who was depressed enough to attempt and fail at suicide is better or worse off than person B who successfully completed the act. Person A is very likely still depressed and in mental pain. Person B is not. Now, if person A "recovers" and goes on to experience many good years of life, maybe then they're better off, but right now, they may believe that they are worse off than person B.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    I am on my phone so don't have the evidence with me right now, but from what I've read, most suicide decisions are relatively spur of the moment, come during a deep depressive moment, and are not necessarily characteristic of the person's broader life or emotional outlook. There is certainly a question, I merely find myself falling pretty heavily on one side of that question, and I think that is generally the side that people would fall on if it were put up to a vote. Dying from suicide worse than surviving suicide.
phkahler 6y ago
>> Personally, I would lump suicide attempts and succesful suicides together in cases like this. I wouldn't, those are vastly different outcomes. I would like a separate stat that lumps suicides and overdoses (and maybe deaths from alcoholism) together. They are all sort of death from despair, and it's hard to say weather an O.D. was deliberate or not.
- hn8788 6y ago
  They're vastly different outcomes, but the article is speculating that giving people stimulus checks is why they didn't kill themselves, while ignoring the increased attempts. From a policy making standpoint, I don't think it should matter if someone cuts their wrists and bleeds to death, or cuts their wrists and is taken to an ER and saved. It seems like it would be more effective to focus on making people not want to kill themselves in the first place than trying to reduce how often they're succesful.

by hn8788 6y ago

whimsicalism 6y ago

I think it definitely matters whether they succeed or not, not much more to say on that other than I disagree and your approach misses important policy changes that could dramatically reduce suicide by reducing the deadliness of attempts (failed attempts make it less likely you will try again). I don't think an increase in suicides a priori means the pandemic is handled poorly if it is the best we could do while stopping the 600k virus deaths from becoming 1.2 mill or whatever.

sokoloff 6y ago
It matters in one obvious substantive way, but there's a valid philosophical question as to whether person A who was depressed enough to attempt and fail at suicide is better or worse off than person B who successfully completed the act. Person A is very likely still depressed and in mental pain. Person B is not. Now, if person A "recovers" and goes on to experience many good years of life, maybe then they're better off, but right now, they may believe that they are worse off than person B.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  I am on my phone so don't have the evidence with me right now, but from what I've read, most suicide decisions are relatively spur of the moment, come during a deep depressive moment, and are not necessarily characteristic of the person's broader life or emotional outlook. There is certainly a question, I merely find myself falling pretty heavily on one side of that question, and I think that is generally the side that people would fall on if it were put up to a vote. Dying from suicide worse than surviving suicide.

phkahler 6y ago

>> Personally, I would lump suicide attempts and succesful suicides together in cases like this. I wouldn't, those are vastly different outcomes. I would like a separate stat that lumps suicides and overdoses (and maybe deaths from alcoholism) together. They are all sort of death from despair, and it's hard to say weather an O.D. was deliberate or not.

hn8788 6y ago
They're vastly different outcomes, but the article is speculating that giving people stimulus checks is why they didn't kill themselves, while ignoring the increased attempts. From a policy making standpoint, I don't think it should matter if someone cuts their wrists and bleeds to death, or cuts their wrists and is taken to an ER and saved. It seems like it would be more effective to focus on making people not want to kill themselves in the first place than trying to reduce how often they're succesful.