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Welfare is basically mandatory charity - it's forcing everyone to chip in (via taxes) for the people who can't manage to support themselves. What I'm talking a

Welfare is basically mandatory charity - it's forcing everyone to chip in (via taxes) for the people who can't manage to support themselves. What I'm talking about is something else entirely - it's a setup where for example the neighbor takes care of your cows and other animals if you go to town for a day or two. Or you help him rebuild his house after a fire. Or, the older kids of your neighbor look after your younger kid, as they play together outside all day. Or somebody is the village's blacksmith and is fixing everyone's iron equipment. Or, you give excess of apples during harvest to someone and expect some other favor from them down the line. Essentially, it's deep interconnectedness with the people around you and essentially an opposite of welfare state, in which you interact not with your neighbors, but with bored and depressed bureucrats at the welfare office and the kafkesque rules that determine whether or not you will be granted the money.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? (Note that the rise of the Nordic welfare states in fact helped to smooth out some political polarization that was hurting those societies in the early 20th century.) In the past, neighbourly help often was refused to people like that. And what if you are a very introverted person who simply doesn’t want to interact with people outside your comfort zone? Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform Then you vote with your feet and move to a community that's friendlier to your values. That community will in turn have strong values of its own, which will help preserve a sense of high social trust within it. It's easy to move out to a competing community, because these quasi-tribal dynamics are inherently limited in scale to a max of about 150 individuals.
  - devdas 6y ago
    Only if such a community exists and is welcoming to outsiders.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  > Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? I don't think people cared much about politics at all before modernity. If anything, the conflicts if any in Europe were centered around religion. As for the minorities, due to people's bigotry, perhaps sometimes they are indeed better off in an alienated modern world. > Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high. It's not a caricature. There are plenty of cases of people who needed help, but for some random stupid reason the bureaucracy refused it (I think even on this forum there is a girl from Germany whose parents died when she was young and, due to a glitch in the system, she was left on her own and forced to support herself via prostitution). The paper shufflers see the pointlessness of the rules they have to obey and the misery it causes (i.e. they knew the girl should get help, but the system just said they can't help her), which is a contributing factor into their potential depression.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? (Note that the rise of the Nordic welfare states in fact helped to smooth out some political polarization that was hurting those societies in the early 20th century.) In the past, neighbourly help often was refused to people like that. And what if you are a very introverted person who simply doesn’t want to interact with people outside your comfort zone? Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high.

zozbot234 6y ago
> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform Then you vote with your feet and move to a community that's friendlier to your values. That community will in turn have strong values of its own, which will help preserve a sense of high social trust within it. It's easy to move out to a competing community, because these quasi-tribal dynamics are inherently limited in scale to a max of about 150 individuals.
- devdas 6y ago
  Only if such a community exists and is welcoming to outsiders.
burntoutfire 6y ago
> Your idealistic vision sounds well and good. But what if you refuse to conform to cisgender- and heteronormativity, but your neighbour is a bigot? What if you are a politically active citizen, but your neighbor’s politics are hostile to yours? I don't think people cared much about politics at all before modernity. If anything, the conflicts if any in Europe were centered around religion. As for the minorities, due to people's bigotry, perhaps sometimes they are indeed better off in an alienated modern world. > Also, “bored and depressed bureaucrats” and “Kafkaesque rules” is a caricature, it may not be how others perceive their country’s welfare state. Satisfaction in fact may run high. It's not a caricature. There are plenty of cases of people who needed help, but for some random stupid reason the bureaucracy refused it (I think even on this forum there is a girl from Germany whose parents died when she was young and, due to a glitch in the system, she was left on her own and forced to support herself via prostitution). The paper shufflers see the pointlessness of the rules they have to obey and the misery it causes (i.e. they knew the girl should get help, but the system just said they can't help her), which is a contributing factor into their potential depression.