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I agree with the sentiment but the example taken for software in this xkcd is wrong. There is a fundamental problem of trust when using software for voting syst

by Rexxar 5y ago

I agree with the sentiment but the example taken for software in this xkcd is wrong. There is a fundamental problem of trust when using software for voting systems that is not linked to the reliability of software but to the nature of voting systems and the properties we want.

michaelt 5y ago
Well, there are two problems and which is the fundamental one depends on your prior assumptions. Some would say it's impossible to build a secure electronic voting system, even if your supplier and their employees were completely trustworthy because between physical tampering, state-level adversaries, the state of the art in software development and the impossibility of proving a negative, such security has never been seen before. In other words, that it's an unsolvable technical problem. Others would say it's impossible to build a secure electronic voting system even if we were capable of creating flawless bug-free and tamper-proof software and hardware because the supplier will always be able to introduce undetectable bugs if they want to, and no supplier can ever be perfectly trustworthy. In other words, that it's an unsolvable social problem.
- kosievdmerwe 5y ago
  Yeah, electronic voting is essentially like having a person in the voting booth that you have to tell your vote and trust that they will tally it correctly. [1] It doesn't matter whether voting machines are actually secure, they probably mostly are right now, but whether a layperson can have faith in the system. Paper voting is very secure if you involve people from opposing parties in the process and attacks are not very scalable. Most people can think of and understand mitigations for certain kinds of attacks. And if paper voting is too expensive for your country, you have bigger issues. [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs [2] That said, I don't see how secure electronic voting can possibly be cheaper than paper voting. For voting machines to be secure, you have to manufacture them in a very audited manner, with little to no foreign sourcing of parts, you can't leave the machines unattended for long periods of time (aka, reusing them between elections is probably a no-go) and you have to build them in manner that is secure against voters tampering with them in their private booth.

by Rexxar 5y ago

michaelt 5y ago

Well, there are two problems and which is the fundamental one depends on your prior assumptions. Some would say it's impossible to build a secure electronic voting system, even if your supplier and their employees were completely trustworthy because between physical tampering, state-level adversaries, the state of the art in software development and the impossibility of proving a negative, such security has never been seen before. In other words, that it's an unsolvable technical problem. Others would say it's impossible to build a secure electronic voting system even if we were capable of creating flawless bug-free and tamper-proof software and hardware because the supplier will always be able to introduce undetectable bugs if they want to, and no supplier can ever be perfectly trustworthy. In other words, that it's an unsolvable social problem.

kosievdmerwe 5y ago
Yeah, electronic voting is essentially like having a person in the voting booth that you have to tell your vote and trust that they will tally it correctly. [1] It doesn't matter whether voting machines are actually secure, they probably mostly are right now, but whether a layperson can have faith in the system. Paper voting is very secure if you involve people from opposing parties in the process and attacks are not very scalable. Most people can think of and understand mitigations for certain kinds of attacks. And if paper voting is too expensive for your country, you have bigger issues. [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs [2] That said, I don't see how secure electronic voting can possibly be cheaper than paper voting. For voting machines to be secure, you have to manufacture them in a very audited manner, with little to no foreign sourcing of parts, you can't leave the machines unattended for long periods of time (aka, reusing them between elections is probably a no-go) and you have to build them in manner that is secure against voters tampering with them in their private booth.