7 ms·

I sincerely doubt the tag line, “Financial support from governments may have reduced one potential cause of despair” has absolutely anything to do with it Suic

by jjcon 6y ago

I sincerely doubt the tag line, “Financial support from governments may have reduced one potential cause of despair” has absolutely anything to do with it Suicide is rarely about true despair, I would say it is more about loss of purpose. When you are scrounging to get by or have bigger fish to fry than some existential demons, suicide falls to the back of your mind. When there is time to ponder bigger questions it returns.

CydeWeys 6y ago
I don't think this is true. A large percentage of suicides are associated with financial ruin, e.g. you're losing your house to foreclosure and about to be homeless. Preventing these situations by financial means would thus prevent said suicides. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/financial-hardship-is-a-top-risk-factor-for-suicide-attempts https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/financial-hardship...
wgjordan 6y ago
A cursory glance at empirical research suggests otherwise, that lower socioeconomic status is directly linked to higher suicide rates.
teachingassist 6y ago
This comment is romanticised nonsense which is consistently opposed by research. Suicide rates are strongly linked to socioeconomic status. Being in the 1st decile for income gives you a more than double risk than being in the 10th decile (and the risk is still higher among even poorer people). Article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0917504017300382 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S091750401... Most relevant graph: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0917504017300382-gr1.jpg https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S09175040173003...
- Alex3917 6y ago
  > This comment is romanticised nonsense which is consistently opposed by research. Suicide rates fluctuate wildly over time though, so trying to understand suicide by looking at relative rates within a given year is going to give you at best an incomplete picture.
- slibhb 6y ago
  It's not nonsense. Your source concerns South Korea, an industrialized country with a high suicide rate. Take a look at all countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... Suicide is not mainly determined by absolute poverty. That doesn't mean that socioeconomic factors or financial ruin are irrelevant but it questions the idea that suicide is mainly about material circumstances.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    What makes you think you can compare across countries? Why do you think "absolute" poverty is important? My buying power isn't materially reduced simply because another country might have a higher per capita income than the one I live in.
    - slibhb 6y ago
      If you want to ask the question "what causes suicide?" you have to generalize. It seems strange to suggest that you can't generalize between countries. You might as well say "how can you compare Tim's suicide to Susan's suicide, they lived totally different lives". Are we only allowed to compare suicides in twin studies? It's plausible that absolute poverty would be the main factor in suicide, i.e. privation and resulting suffering would drive people to suicide. Though plausible, that doesn't seem to be the case, which is interesting. Glancing at the data on wikipedia, there seem to be cultural and religious factors at play here that dwarf economic factors (not to mention sex...). Muslim countries have low rates of suicide. Japan and Korea have high rates of suicide. It's totally fine to look for correlations along economic lines but that's a lot more to the story and it isn't wrong to bring that up.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess.
- jjcon 6y ago
  Looking at a single country when this is more about first world vs third world is hardly useful or scientific
whimsicalism 6y ago
Here's something I think is good to internalize for social science research. It doesn't matter if it is "rarely associated"... Among millions of people, do you think the association will be positive or negative?
isoskeles 6y ago
As others have pointed out, this doesn't seem to align with data about suicides. I'll add to the list, chronic pain carries a much higher risk of suicide as well. I'm sure there are many other factors and it's hard to point at any one as a real, root cause, but I don't think that existential dread or ennui or whatever you name it is the root cause either. As an aside, if I were a poor, suicidal person, I'd probably take extreme issue with your comment as somehow implying that I'm not 'doing being suicidal right' or something like that, since I'm apparently being suicidal when I should be thinking about my three part-time jobs. (I'm not, I don't take personal offense, I'm just expressing how I suppose someone might see this mentality, and how it could be seen as insensitive. Although, these people do have bigger problems than internet comments, and any kind of correction here wouldn't fix that.)
- jjcon 6y ago
  > not 'doing being suicidal right' Maybe they’re not?
fzzzy 6y ago
How exactly do you know this, not having had experience committing suicide?

by jjcon 6y ago

CydeWeys 6y ago

I don't think this is true. A large percentage of suicides are associated with financial ruin, e.g. you're losing your house to foreclosure and about to be homeless. Preventing these situations by financial means would thus prevent said suicides. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/financial-hardship-is-a-top-risk-factor-for-suicide-attempts https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/financial-hardship...

wgjordan 6y ago

A cursory glance at empirical research suggests otherwise, that lower socioeconomic status is directly linked to higher suicide rates.

teachingassist 6y ago

This comment is romanticised nonsense which is consistently opposed by research. Suicide rates are strongly linked to socioeconomic status. Being in the 1st decile for income gives you a more than double risk than being in the 10th decile (and the risk is still higher among even poorer people). Article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0917504017300382 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S091750401... Most relevant graph: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0917504017300382-gr1.jpg https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S09175040173003...

Alex3917 6y ago
> This comment is romanticised nonsense which is consistently opposed by research. Suicide rates fluctuate wildly over time though, so trying to understand suicide by looking at relative rates within a given year is going to give you at best an incomplete picture.
slibhb 6y ago
It's not nonsense. Your source concerns South Korea, an industrialized country with a high suicide rate. Take a look at all countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... Suicide is not mainly determined by absolute poverty. That doesn't mean that socioeconomic factors or financial ruin are irrelevant but it questions the idea that suicide is mainly about material circumstances.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  What makes you think you can compare across countries? Why do you think "absolute" poverty is important? My buying power isn't materially reduced simply because another country might have a higher per capita income than the one I live in.
  - slibhb 6y ago
    If you want to ask the question "what causes suicide?" you have to generalize. It seems strange to suggest that you can't generalize between countries. You might as well say "how can you compare Tim's suicide to Susan's suicide, they lived totally different lives". Are we only allowed to compare suicides in twin studies? It's plausible that absolute poverty would be the main factor in suicide, i.e. privation and resulting suffering would drive people to suicide. Though plausible, that doesn't seem to be the case, which is interesting. Glancing at the data on wikipedia, there seem to be cultural and religious factors at play here that dwarf economic factors (not to mention sex...). Muslim countries have low rates of suicide. Japan and Korea have high rates of suicide. It's totally fine to look for correlations along economic lines but that's a lot more to the story and it isn't wrong to bring that up.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      Why does it seem strange to suggest one can't generalize across countries? What does the life of the average American have in common with the life of the average Saudi Arabian or Chinese person, for instance? As far as poverty goes, I don't see any reason at all that absolute poverty should mean anything. Again, my buying power isn't materially affected by that of people in Europe, for instance, but my buying power certainly has a huge absolute effect on my quality of life. I would expect the effect of poverty on suicide rates to be stronger per country than worldwide for this reason, and also that what is considered poor in the United States would be unimaginably rich in some countries. And, those cultural factors are precisely what makes it difficult to compare across countries. The amount of statistical adjustment you'd have to do to compare across even 10 countries would probably swamp most of the non-cultural effects is my guess.
jjcon 6y ago
Looking at a single country when this is more about first world vs third world is hardly useful or scientific

whimsicalism 6y ago

Here's something I think is good to internalize for social science research. It doesn't matter if it is "rarely associated"... Among millions of people, do you think the association will be positive or negative?

isoskeles 6y ago

As others have pointed out, this doesn't seem to align with data about suicides. I'll add to the list, chronic pain carries a much higher risk of suicide as well. I'm sure there are many other factors and it's hard to point at any one as a real, root cause, but I don't think that existential dread or ennui or whatever you name it is the root cause either. As an aside, if I were a poor, suicidal person, I'd probably take extreme issue with your comment as somehow implying that I'm not 'doing being suicidal right' or something like that, since I'm apparently being suicidal when I should be thinking about my three part-time jobs. (I'm not, I don't take personal offense, I'm just expressing how I suppose someone might see this mentality, and how it could be seen as insensitive. Although, these people do have bigger problems than internet comments, and any kind of correction here wouldn't fix that.)

jjcon 6y ago
> not 'doing being suicidal right' Maybe they’re not?

fzzzy 6y ago

How exactly do you know this, not having had experience committing suicide?