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> and because transfer fees range from not-zero to ridiculous This problem has been solved already: just stick to using exchanges that support Lightning (e.g.

by knocte 5y ago

> and because transfer fees range from not-zero to ridiculous This problem has been solved already: just stick to using exchanges that support Lightning (e.g. Bitaroo, Bitfinex, Bitnovo, etc)

grey-area 5y ago
Bitfinex No danger of fraud there!
joosters 5y ago
Catch-22: To open a lightning channel, you need to make a transaction (and so pay the high fees), but to pay that fee, you'll need to already have coins in a wallet that you control - which you can only achieve by withdrawing some coins from the exchange. So your 'solution' is for people to withdraw some coins, paying a high fee, then open a lightning channel (again, paying another high fee), make a lightning transaction (beta software, coins at risk, barely functional, better hope you're running the lightning software 24/7 to ensure you don't get ripped off!) and finally you have your coins in your own wallet. What a bargain! Currency of the future!
- gruez 5y ago
  >Catch-22: To open a lightning channel, you need to make a transaction (and so pay the high fees), but to pay that fee, you'll need to already have coins in a wallet that you control - which you can only achieve by withdrawing some coins from the exchange. I'm not sure whether any exchanges implement this, but theoretically they can withdraw and open a channel at the same time. ie. instead of withdrawing 0.1 BTC, they deposit 0.1BTC to a channel and send all the funds to you. >beta software It's used in production by various merchants so I'm not sure how relevant this is. Speaking of which, isn't bitcoin itself "beta" as well? ie. the version number is still 0.x.x >barely functional ??? >better hope you're running the lightning software 24/7 to ensure you don't get ripped off AFAIK the period is somewhere between 1 week or 2 weeks (don't remember which), and you can have third parties do the monitoring for you.
  - joosters 5y ago
    Beta software: http://lightning.network/docs/ http://lightning.network/docs/ reports that the design of the network is still only in draft form, never mind the software! (those pesky details like routing, which are a difficult problem, are mostly elided in the documents so far) The main lightning daemon, https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd is still beta, with plenty of warnings in the docs about shortcomings and potential loss of funds. I'm sure people use it, but the developers are very clear that it it is not to be trusted: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/safety.md https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf... says that it is 'considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of BTC into the network' - how can anyone consider this to be production quality? you can have third parties do the monitoring for you Not your keys/monitor, not your coins! We're back to square one, aren't we? With just some dodgy software and additional complexity papering over the critical flaws.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >reports that the design of the network is still only in draft form last updated 2016 >(those pesky details like routing, which are a difficult problem, are mostly elided in the documents so far) Can you elaborate on why routing is a difficult problem? Pathfinding and flowgraphs are solved problems in computer science. >I'm sure people use it, but the developers are very clear that it it is not to be trusted: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf... says that it is 'considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of BTC into the network' - it's considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of money into a volatile cryptocurrency (or for that matter, even a single stock) >how can anyone consider this to be production quality? it's considered production quality because merchants are willing to put hundreds of thousands of dollars into it. >Not your keys/monitor, not your coins! watchtowers don't require your keys.
hanniabu 5y ago
You mean the centralized off chain network that's riddled with bugs and horrible UX?
- gruez 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on why it's "centralized"?
  - hanniabu 5y ago
    It's a network of node operators but rather than operating as a network, they operate as individual hubs. It's also all offchain and you have no idea if they're playing by the rules.

by knocte 5y ago

> and because transfer fees range from not-zero to ridiculous This problem has been solved already: just stick to using exchanges that support Lightning (e.g. Bitaroo, Bitfinex, Bitnovo, etc)

grey-area 5y ago

Bitfinex No danger of fraud there!

joosters 5y ago

Catch-22: To open a lightning channel, you need to make a transaction (and so pay the high fees), but to pay that fee, you'll need to already have coins in a wallet that you control - which you can only achieve by withdrawing some coins from the exchange. So your 'solution' is for people to withdraw some coins, paying a high fee, then open a lightning channel (again, paying another high fee), make a lightning transaction (beta software, coins at risk, barely functional, better hope you're running the lightning software 24/7 to ensure you don't get ripped off!) and finally you have your coins in your own wallet. What a bargain! Currency of the future!

gruez 5y ago
>Catch-22: To open a lightning channel, you need to make a transaction (and so pay the high fees), but to pay that fee, you'll need to already have coins in a wallet that you control - which you can only achieve by withdrawing some coins from the exchange. I'm not sure whether any exchanges implement this, but theoretically they can withdraw and open a channel at the same time. ie. instead of withdrawing 0.1 BTC, they deposit 0.1BTC to a channel and send all the funds to you. >beta software It's used in production by various merchants so I'm not sure how relevant this is. Speaking of which, isn't bitcoin itself "beta" as well? ie. the version number is still 0.x.x >barely functional ??? >better hope you're running the lightning software 24/7 to ensure you don't get ripped off AFAIK the period is somewhere between 1 week or 2 weeks (don't remember which), and you can have third parties do the monitoring for you.
- joosters 5y ago
  Beta software: http://lightning.network/docs/ http://lightning.network/docs/ reports that the design of the network is still only in draft form, never mind the software! (those pesky details like routing, which are a difficult problem, are mostly elided in the documents so far) The main lightning daemon, https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd is still beta, with plenty of warnings in the docs about shortcomings and potential loss of funds. I'm sure people use it, but the developers are very clear that it it is not to be trusted: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/safety.md https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf... says that it is 'considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of BTC into the network' - how can anyone consider this to be production quality? you can have third parties do the monitoring for you Not your keys/monitor, not your coins! We're back to square one, aren't we? With just some dodgy software and additional complexity papering over the critical flaws.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >reports that the design of the network is still only in draft form last updated 2016 >(those pesky details like routing, which are a difficult problem, are mostly elided in the documents so far) Can you elaborate on why routing is a difficult problem? Pathfinding and flowgraphs are solved problems in computer science. >I'm sure people use it, but the developers are very clear that it it is not to be trusted: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/saf... says that it is 'considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of BTC into the network' - it's considered reckless to put any life altering amounts of money into a volatile cryptocurrency (or for that matter, even a single stock) >how can anyone consider this to be production quality? it's considered production quality because merchants are willing to put hundreds of thousands of dollars into it. >Not your keys/monitor, not your coins! watchtowers don't require your keys.

hanniabu 5y ago

You mean the centralized off chain network that's riddled with bugs and horrible UX?

gruez 5y ago
Can you elaborate on why it's "centralized"?
- hanniabu 5y ago
  It's a network of node operators but rather than operating as a network, they operate as individual hubs. It's also all offchain and you have no idea if they're playing by the rules.