6 ms·

country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that id

country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity. which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.

periheli0n 5y ago
I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension. Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.
- em-bee 5y ago
  quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.
  - timeslip1523 5y ago
    No way in hell. The idea of a nation didn't spring out of nowhere, tribes and ethnicities are much older. You're not going to make the greeks become germans by the EU... encouraging open borders? I guess replacing the greeks would be a change, but it seems kind of like cheating.
  - periheli0n 5y ago
    I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.
    - em-bee 5y ago
      oh, that i agree with. i certainly didn't mean that the different unique aspects to each region should go away, but the identities connected to them. i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight. we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world. and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.
- emteycz 5y ago
  I don't know of a single EU member state that its citizens consider to exist for less than 400 years. Europe focuses on nationalism unconnected to states (modern states were established after WW2 by historic national borders), and there is a strong culture of legal continuity - spanning 600+ years in most cases, 1200+ years in case of Czechia, around 1700 in case of Germany... the Holy Roman Empire claimed to be the continuation of the Roman Empire itself (and legally it was!). Even if you can't see the state on old maps, there was a subordinated but sovereign enough duchy or principality, from which practically every modern EU member state derives its right to exist and be where it is. Amusingly, Russia is one of, if not the youngest European state if we consider this kind of continuity.
  - periheli0n 5y ago
    Germany as we know it today developed in the 1800s and its borders have changed significantly since. Prior to that it was a couple of kingdoms, each of which changed allegiance between the various middle-European empires many times, every time there was a war or someone noble married. Parts of Germany were occupied over long stretches of time, e.g. by the Swedish, the French, more recently the British and Americans, every time leaving an impression in the culture. Culture in various parts of Germany in diverse, most striking is the difference between Prussia and Bavaria. Cultural development in Germany was regionally diverse and subject to huge outside influence all the time. If there was legal continuity then it was because the whole of Europe was governed by the same bunch of emperor families since the fall of Rome. But this was totally decoupled from culture.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

periheli0n 5y ago

I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension. Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.

em-bee 5y ago
quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.
- timeslip1523 5y ago
  No way in hell. The idea of a nation didn't spring out of nowhere, tribes and ethnicities are much older. You're not going to make the greeks become germans by the EU... encouraging open borders? I guess replacing the greeks would be a change, but it seems kind of like cheating.
- periheli0n 5y ago
  I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    oh, that i agree with. i certainly didn't mean that the different unique aspects to each region should go away, but the identities connected to them. i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight. we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world. and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.
emteycz 5y ago
I don't know of a single EU member state that its citizens consider to exist for less than 400 years. Europe focuses on nationalism unconnected to states (modern states were established after WW2 by historic national borders), and there is a strong culture of legal continuity - spanning 600+ years in most cases, 1200+ years in case of Czechia, around 1700 in case of Germany... the Holy Roman Empire claimed to be the continuation of the Roman Empire itself (and legally it was!). Even if you can't see the state on old maps, there was a subordinated but sovereign enough duchy or principality, from which practically every modern EU member state derives its right to exist and be where it is. Amusingly, Russia is one of, if not the youngest European state if we consider this kind of continuity.
- periheli0n 5y ago
  Germany as we know it today developed in the 1800s and its borders have changed significantly since. Prior to that it was a couple of kingdoms, each of which changed allegiance between the various middle-European empires many times, every time there was a war or someone noble married. Parts of Germany were occupied over long stretches of time, e.g. by the Swedish, the French, more recently the British and Americans, every time leaving an impression in the culture. Culture in various parts of Germany in diverse, most striking is the difference between Prussia and Bavaria. Cultural development in Germany was regionally diverse and subject to huge outside influence all the time. If there was legal continuity then it was because the whole of Europe was governed by the same bunch of emperor families since the fall of Rome. But this was totally decoupled from culture.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]