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"Not your keys, not your crypto" -- but only in the minds of "crypto-enthousiasts" that's a feature rather than a bug

by sashimi-houdini 5y ago

nathias 5y ago
it's not a feature, it just a fact (the feature is that you can have it at all)
- arcticbull 5y ago
  My program crashes if you look at it sideways, that's not a bug, it's a fact. The feature is that you can have it at all!
  - nathias 5y ago
    congratulations on mastering the keyboard, next step: thought
    - mmmmmbop 5y ago
      From HN guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. (...) When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names."
  - CyberDildonics 5y ago
    Are you comparing the most fundamental part of crypto currencies (being able to make transactions yourself) to software crashing? How does that make sense?
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      Yes, I am saying the fact that someone can take your keys and you have zero recourse to ever reclaiming that value is a bug. It's one of the "original sins" if you will. Because that's not what anyone actually wants. I've never met anyone who was thrilled by the prospect that if anything went wrong nobody could help them.
      - CyberDildonics 5y ago
        > Yes, I am saying the fact that someone can take your keys and you have zero recourse to ever reclaiming that value is a bug. A bug is something unintentional. I guess you don't carry any cash or drive a car either, since 'anyone can take it and you have zero recourse'. Stealing cryptocurrency is still illegal. > It's one of the "original sins" if you will. Because that's not what anyone actually wants. It may not be what you want, but if you need to send money electronically to another person somewhere else in the world you might think differently. If you are tired of your credit card number getting passed around you might like being able to see a transaction, approve it and be done with it. If you live in a country with hyperinflation or banking controls it could be the separation between two very different lifestyles. I can guess ahead of time that you will move the goal posts here from 'no one wants it' to 'I don't see people doing that'. > I've never met anyone who was thrilled by the prospect that if anything went wrong nobody could help them. Even when people lose cryptocurrency it is either from losing access to the keys or being scammed. The idea that people actually get their own keys is much more rare. Modern banking solves some problems of reversibility, but the same could easily be applied to cryptocurrency. The reverse - being able to use money electronically, peer to peer, without a third party, is not something the modern banking system has given anyone yet.
        arcticbull 5y ago
        > A bug is something unintentional. I guess you don't carry any cash or drive a car either, since 'anyone can take it and you have zero recourse'. Yes, I literally do not carry cash, not more than $20, for exactly that reason. And neither does anyone else I know of not actively involved in a drug deal. I do not however see why you mentioned a car, that's a tool, not a store of value. I don't transact car. > Stealing cryptocurrency is still illegal. Code is law. It's not stealing if you take it from a smart contract. Like a DAO. I'm sure the illegality of their actions is of big consolation to every Turkish person right now. I hear there was an exit scam. > It may not be what you want, but if you need to send money electronically to another person somewhere else in the world you might think differently. It's not what anyone wants. That's why Visa offers chargebacks and all issuers have fraud departments. Let me ask you this: when was the last time you heard any customer gripe at the merchant, "man, I really really wish I couldn't charge you back in the event this product isn't as advertised and you refuse to help me out -- what a nightmare!" Chargebacks are the reason e-commerce is even a thing. The only way people trusted websites to pay for stuff is safe in the knowledge if shit hit the fan they had someone to sort it out. > If you live in a country with hyperinflation or banking controls it could be the separation between two very different lifestyles. I can guess ahead of time that you will move the goal posts here from 'no one wants it' to 'I don't see people doing that'. Do people in hyperinflationary countries use it? No, because they don't want their currency to drop 30% overnight like BTC did this week. That's just as bad if not worse than their home currency. Worse, in the sense it comes with a $50 transaction fee, which is a months salary in a lot of these places. Not to mention the value of the crypto assets these Turks held dropped to 0 the second their bank fled to Thailand with them. > The reverse - being able to use money electronically, peer to peer, without a third party, is not something the modern banking system has given anyone yet. And yet it works great. Almost like it's not something people need. Or want! Because intermediaries add value. That's why we pay them.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Whether you call it a fact or feature, it does attract people who have a distrust of institutions. Many of these people don’t understand how modern banking systems actually work or how protections like FDIC insurance are extremely valuable protections. Every Bitcoin thread on HN attracts crypto proponents who try to compare cryptocurrency to storing cash under your mattress or keeping gold bars in your basement, when that comparison is useless for 99% of people who wisely choose to use modern banking systems and all of the protections they afford. Cryptocurrency also attracts people who like the complexity and rituals of managing it all. Playing with crypto wallets and blockchains and different ways of moving numbers around is fun to a lot of people, and they don’t understand why the things they enjoy are actually a hassle to everyone else. Finally, crypto enthusiasts love the scarcity of their crypto, so seeing other people lose crypto makes their own holdings more valuable. It financially benefits them each time coins are lost forever, because the market cap stays high but those lost coins will never be sold, removing them from downward price pressure.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Nothing wrong with these protections. Insurance is a good thing, exchanges should be insured as well. We just don't like the costs typically associated with these nice things. We gain protections and stability but in exchange we are subjected to the whims of government: arbitrary freezing of accounts, invasion of privacy, erosion of freedom, abusive taxation, highly inflationary monetary policy... It's no wonder people like a system that lets them escape all of that if they want.
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 5y ago
What gives you the right to proclaim what a user wants their software to do? If it is a feature to some people they are perfectly fine to consider it as such.
- sashimi-houdini 5y ago
  I'm sure the victims from TFA don't see it as a feature, and as such: If crypto-enthousiasts have the right to victim-blaming, I certainly have the right to point out what's going on, no?

"Not your keys, not your crypto" -- but only in the minds of "crypto-enthousiasts" that's a feature rather than a bug

nathias 5y ago

it's not a feature, it just a fact (the feature is that you can have it at all)

arcticbull 5y ago
My program crashes if you look at it sideways, that's not a bug, it's a fact. The feature is that you can have it at all!
- nathias 5y ago
  congratulations on mastering the keyboard, next step: thought
  - mmmmmbop 5y ago
    From HN guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. (...) When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names."
- CyberDildonics 5y ago
  Are you comparing the most fundamental part of crypto currencies (being able to make transactions yourself) to software crashing? How does that make sense?
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Yes, I am saying the fact that someone can take your keys and you have zero recourse to ever reclaiming that value is a bug. It's one of the "original sins" if you will. Because that's not what anyone actually wants. I've never met anyone who was thrilled by the prospect that if anything went wrong nobody could help them.
    - CyberDildonics 5y ago
      > Yes, I am saying the fact that someone can take your keys and you have zero recourse to ever reclaiming that value is a bug. A bug is something unintentional. I guess you don't carry any cash or drive a car either, since 'anyone can take it and you have zero recourse'. Stealing cryptocurrency is still illegal. > It's one of the "original sins" if you will. Because that's not what anyone actually wants. It may not be what you want, but if you need to send money electronically to another person somewhere else in the world you might think differently. If you are tired of your credit card number getting passed around you might like being able to see a transaction, approve it and be done with it. If you live in a country with hyperinflation or banking controls it could be the separation between two very different lifestyles. I can guess ahead of time that you will move the goal posts here from 'no one wants it' to 'I don't see people doing that'. > I've never met anyone who was thrilled by the prospect that if anything went wrong nobody could help them. Even when people lose cryptocurrency it is either from losing access to the keys or being scammed. The idea that people actually get their own keys is much more rare. Modern banking solves some problems of reversibility, but the same could easily be applied to cryptocurrency. The reverse - being able to use money electronically, peer to peer, without a third party, is not something the modern banking system has given anyone yet.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        > A bug is something unintentional. I guess you don't carry any cash or drive a car either, since 'anyone can take it and you have zero recourse'. Yes, I literally do not carry cash, not more than $20, for exactly that reason. And neither does anyone else I know of not actively involved in a drug deal. I do not however see why you mentioned a car, that's a tool, not a store of value. I don't transact car. > Stealing cryptocurrency is still illegal. Code is law. It's not stealing if you take it from a smart contract. Like a DAO. I'm sure the illegality of their actions is of big consolation to every Turkish person right now. I hear there was an exit scam. > It may not be what you want, but if you need to send money electronically to another person somewhere else in the world you might think differently. It's not what anyone wants. That's why Visa offers chargebacks and all issuers have fraud departments. Let me ask you this: when was the last time you heard any customer gripe at the merchant, "man, I really really wish I couldn't charge you back in the event this product isn't as advertised and you refuse to help me out -- what a nightmare!" Chargebacks are the reason e-commerce is even a thing. The only way people trusted websites to pay for stuff is safe in the knowledge if shit hit the fan they had someone to sort it out. > If you live in a country with hyperinflation or banking controls it could be the separation between two very different lifestyles. I can guess ahead of time that you will move the goal posts here from 'no one wants it' to 'I don't see people doing that'. Do people in hyperinflationary countries use it? No, because they don't want their currency to drop 30% overnight like BTC did this week. That's just as bad if not worse than their home currency. Worse, in the sense it comes with a $50 transaction fee, which is a months salary in a lot of these places. Not to mention the value of the crypto assets these Turks held dropped to 0 the second their bank fled to Thailand with them. > The reverse - being able to use money electronically, peer to peer, without a third party, is not something the modern banking system has given anyone yet. And yet it works great. Almost like it's not something people need. Or want! Because intermediaries add value. That's why we pay them.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Whether you call it a fact or feature, it does attract people who have a distrust of institutions. Many of these people don’t understand how modern banking systems actually work or how protections like FDIC insurance are extremely valuable protections. Every Bitcoin thread on HN attracts crypto proponents who try to compare cryptocurrency to storing cash under your mattress or keeping gold bars in your basement, when that comparison is useless for 99% of people who wisely choose to use modern banking systems and all of the protections they afford. Cryptocurrency also attracts people who like the complexity and rituals of managing it all. Playing with crypto wallets and blockchains and different ways of moving numbers around is fun to a lot of people, and they don’t understand why the things they enjoy are actually a hassle to everyone else. Finally, crypto enthusiasts love the scarcity of their crypto, so seeing other people lose crypto makes their own holdings more valuable. It financially benefits them each time coins are lost forever, because the market cap stays high but those lost coins will never be sold, removing them from downward price pressure.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Nothing wrong with these protections. Insurance is a good thing, exchanges should be insured as well. We just don't like the costs typically associated with these nice things. We gain protections and stability but in exchange we are subjected to the whims of government: arbitrary freezing of accounts, invasion of privacy, erosion of freedom, abusive taxation, highly inflationary monetary policy... It's no wonder people like a system that lets them escape all of that if they want.

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 5y ago

What gives you the right to proclaim what a user wants their software to do? If it is a feature to some people they are perfectly fine to consider it as such.

sashimi-houdini 5y ago
I'm sure the victims from TFA don't see it as a feature, and as such: If crypto-enthousiasts have the right to victim-blaming, I certainly have the right to point out what's going on, no?