4 ms·

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough

by titzer 6y ago

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (e.g. the Syrian refugee situation), but deep down, the Germans don't want Germany being overrun by immigrants. I heard as much even from eastern Europeans who lived their whole lives in Germany. I had to eventually move away, for various reasons, but being in a foreign land, alone, is alienating by default. You never really know the rules or customs, you have no shared cultural background, like TV shows or games, and the nuance of a foreign language is so deep.

periheli0n 6y ago
I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).
- varjag 6y ago
  The one that you hear complaints about the most (the USA) comes in fact closest.
- iovrthoughtthis 6y ago
  country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity. which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.
  - periheli0n 6y ago
    I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension. Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.
    - em-bee 6y ago
      quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.
      - timeslip1523 6y ago
        No way in hell. The idea of a nation didn't spring out of nowhere, tribes and ethnicities are much older. You're not going to make the greeks become germans by the EU... encouraging open borders? I guess replacing the greeks would be a change, but it seems kind of like cheating.
      - periheli0n 6y ago
        I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.
        em-bee 6y ago
        oh, that i agree with. i certainly didn't mean that the different unique aspects to each region should go away, but the identities connected to them. i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight. we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world. and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      I don't know of a single EU member state that its citizens consider to exist for less than 400 years. Europe focuses on nationalism unconnected to states (modern states were established after WW2 by historic national borders), and there is a strong culture of legal continuity - spanning 600+ years in most cases, 1200+ years in case of Czechia, around 1700 in case of Germany... the Holy Roman Empire claimed to be the continuation of the Roman Empire itself (and legally it was!). Even if you can't see the state on old maps, there was a subordinated but sovereign enough duchy or principality, from which practically every modern EU member state derives its right to exist and be where it is. Amusingly, Russia is one of, if not the youngest European state if we consider this kind of continuity.
atoav 6y ago
As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matter too much. If you are in the suburbs of shouthern or eastern German cities, much more so. If you are in the creative world of Berlin you might get away without talking German at all. Given it's comparedly small size Germany has a surprisingly diverse regional culture, which is why people who know the regions well usually lough at the idea of something that is "real German". Or as the Austrians say it: "What divides us from the Germans, is the common language" and I'd argue Bavarian and northern German culture is equally far apart.
- periheli0n 6y ago
  Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.
  - DocTomoe 6y ago
    Not only "fear of being made fun of", also "not becoming a target for terrorist acts". In some Berlin districts, having the "wrong" license plate is making it likely to get your car torched.
    - periheli0n 6y ago
      These are maybe five blocks in a distinct Kreuzberg neighbourhood which has gone from low rent to being among the most expensive parts of Berlin, within a decade. The inhabitants often have no choice but to move far away in Berlin, giving up their home. Many of them are very angry and have nothing to lose.
  - 6y ago
DocTomoe 6y ago
Especially with Germany, this also is a cultural phenomeon - even for Germans, it is surprisingly hard to get into a group you are not a member of (especially if you go into the less hip, super-urban areas of Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg or Munich). Getting into the pack is hard, but once you're in, you got friends for life. I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.
- periheli0n 6y ago
  I found it equally hard to "get in the pack" whether I moved town within Germany, or moved to France, or to the UK, or within the UK. No matter where, it was always easiest to find friends among people who themselves have moved around a lot. People who always lived in the same place will almost always have their wall up, especially if they have the feeling that too many foreigners invade their home town.
brnt 6y ago
It's tempting to hold ones own N=1 for the generic case, but off course that can never be true. I have found that variability within countries is higher than between (Western) countries. Which does not mean there are no mean differences, but with a limited sampling size you can get a very wrong impression. Same reason you cannot possibly judge your own country BTW: you can't pass for an outsider, and you will have that almost innate shared set of references.
feralimal 6y ago
That's white on white racism.

by titzer 6y ago

periheli0n 6y ago

I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).

varjag 6y ago
The one that you hear complaints about the most (the USA) comes in fact closest.
iovrthoughtthis 6y ago
country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity. which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.
- periheli0n 6y ago
  I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension. Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.
  - em-bee 6y ago
    quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.
    - timeslip1523 6y ago
      No way in hell. The idea of a nation didn't spring out of nowhere, tribes and ethnicities are much older. You're not going to make the greeks become germans by the EU... encouraging open borders? I guess replacing the greeks would be a change, but it seems kind of like cheating.
    - periheli0n 6y ago
      I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.
      - em-bee 6y ago
        oh, that i agree with. i certainly didn't mean that the different unique aspects to each region should go away, but the identities connected to them. i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight. we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world. and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    I don't know of a single EU member state that its citizens consider to exist for less than 400 years. Europe focuses on nationalism unconnected to states (modern states were established after WW2 by historic national borders), and there is a strong culture of legal continuity - spanning 600+ years in most cases, 1200+ years in case of Czechia, around 1700 in case of Germany... the Holy Roman Empire claimed to be the continuation of the Roman Empire itself (and legally it was!). Even if you can't see the state on old maps, there was a subordinated but sovereign enough duchy or principality, from which practically every modern EU member state derives its right to exist and be where it is. Amusingly, Russia is one of, if not the youngest European state if we consider this kind of continuity.

atoav 6y ago

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matter too much. If you are in the suburbs of shouthern or eastern German cities, much more so. If you are in the creative world of Berlin you might get away without talking German at all. Given it's comparedly small size Germany has a surprisingly diverse regional culture, which is why people who know the regions well usually lough at the idea of something that is "real German". Or as the Austrians say it: "What divides us from the Germans, is the common language" and I'd argue Bavarian and northern German culture is equally far apart.

periheli0n 6y ago
Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.
- DocTomoe 6y ago
  Not only "fear of being made fun of", also "not becoming a target for terrorist acts". In some Berlin districts, having the "wrong" license plate is making it likely to get your car torched.
  - periheli0n 6y ago
    These are maybe five blocks in a distinct Kreuzberg neighbourhood which has gone from low rent to being among the most expensive parts of Berlin, within a decade. The inhabitants often have no choice but to move far away in Berlin, giving up their home. Many of them are very angry and have nothing to lose.
- 6y ago

DocTomoe 6y ago

Especially with Germany, this also is a cultural phenomeon - even for Germans, it is surprisingly hard to get into a group you are not a member of (especially if you go into the less hip, super-urban areas of Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg or Munich). Getting into the pack is hard, but once you're in, you got friends for life. I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.

periheli0n 6y ago
I found it equally hard to "get in the pack" whether I moved town within Germany, or moved to France, or to the UK, or within the UK. No matter where, it was always easiest to find friends among people who themselves have moved around a lot. People who always lived in the same place will almost always have their wall up, especially if they have the feeling that too many foreigners invade their home town.

brnt 6y ago

It's tempting to hold ones own N=1 for the generic case, but off course that can never be true. I have found that variability within countries is higher than between (Western) countries. Which does not mean there are no mean differences, but with a limited sampling size you can get a very wrong impression. Same reason you cannot possibly judge your own country BTW: you can't pass for an outsider, and you will have that almost innate shared set of references.

feralimal 6y ago

That's white on white racism.