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I'm Korean American; my dad is an elder at a big Korean American church. Several years ago a missionary came asking for donations of computers which he would ta

I'm Korean American; my dad is an elder at a big Korean American church. Several years ago a missionary came asking for donations of computers which he would take to North Korea to teach computer skills. In any case, my dad called for a meeting of the church leadership and put a stop to it, but that was a big WTF moment. Is sending computer equipment and/or teaching North Koreans computer skills even legal from the US standpoint? I don't remember if said missionary was an American citizen or a South Korean one. The same goes for a lot of aid that gets sent there. That people are suffering there is tragic, but it is so easy for aid to be diverted to primarily benefit the Kim dynasty and its closest circles while the majority of the country doesn't reap the benefits.

nemo44x 6y ago
At some point I imagine the best thing we could do, besides ignorethem, is to send weapons. Have the CIA arrange gun and bomb smuggling operations; airdrop rifles and ammunition and rations if needed. Give the people an opportunity to revolt and if they choose not to then let them live the life they want.
jhwang5 6y ago
It's actually possible that the NK hackers are taking blame on behalf of CCP. Would take too long to explain fully. Just imagine NK as a "blame proxy" for CCP when it comes to the edgiest operations
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  Sounds plausible, but is there any sort of evidence or indication that this is happening?
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    The US press paints N. Korea as a rogue nation, but it's not. N. Korea is a client (vassal) state of China. The CCP is involved in N. Korea because: 1) It's a border buffer country, which has security implications and is the main reason China invaded Korea during the Korean War. 2) China doesn't want millions of starving refugees crossing their border. 3) As a client state, N. Korea will adhere to CCP ideology directives. The CCP can summon N. Korean leadership any time it wants to. 4) The CCP doesn't care if N. Korea launches nuclear weapons at the US since that has always been the ideological goal of the CCP. (Mao was angry when Russia removed their nukes from Cuba.) So questions like, "Is N. Korea taking blame for CCP hacking" or vice versa is not significant since they work in concert anyway. You might as well ask, "Do Russia and Cuba agree on trade?"
  - not1ofU 6y ago
    the same evidence thats used to blame everything else on the Russians.
maxden 6y ago
There was the timber hauling truck converted into an ICBM launcher. With the deforestation apparently happening in North Korea it probably wasn't the best thing to sell them regardless. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china-truck-idUSKBN19P1J3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china...
- hnbad 6y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. I can see you make two diametrically opposed arguments with that example: A) Even seemingly harmless tools can be turned into dangerous weapons and they've done so before, so the best course of action is to not support them at all because they'll just turn around and try to hurt us. B) Even seemingly harmless tools can be turned into dangerous weapons so there's no point in obsessing whether what we give them could be used for nefarious purposes as they'll just come up with a way to hurt us if they want to anyway.
  - not1ofU 6y ago
    C) Dont forget FOSS ;-)
yongjik 6y ago
I understand your point, but the fear sounds overblown. North Korea isn't some isolated kingdom in the Andes - they have a long border with China, over which the US has no control. If NK wants to raise a hacker army, I don't think the existence of some used computers donated by American churches would make a meaningful difference. * That said, we also have to consider the danger of the US government deciding the donation is illegal, so ... (shrug)
- ehsankia 6y ago
  My knowledge of NK is fairly limited, but I genuinely don't see what help would computers do to NK. Do they have access to the internet? What good do computers do without an internet connection? Maybe you can play some games, maybe you can load some software like spreadsheets but that's assuming they have books to learn how to use it. Would it be for training so they can get some better jobs? Are there computer jobs?
  - abraae 6y ago
    Back in the old days we learned about computers without the internet. You had mainly paper documentation. With 10 or so of the best tech manuals to read, and a bunch of old machines to network together, and a few CDs of useful software, the right person could easily become highly skilled. And by definition hacking means working out things that aren't already known (by many at least) so the absence of say stackoverflow and the other joys of the internet wouldn't slow those guys down either.
  - yongjik 6y ago
    The economy of North Korea is an enigma, but despite decades of very poor planning, they do have industry. I'm sure they have jobs that need basic computer literacy.
  - function_seven 6y ago
    I had a computer for 12 years before my first Internet connection. Actually didn't have a modem at all. It was hugely influential in my development. I drew things, animated things, made music, wrote school papers and a neighborhood newsletter, made videos with wipes and title cards, wrote my first resume (at 15, hah), and of course played some games. I give a tremendous amount of credit to having that in the home for my current computer literacy and career path.
bane 6y ago
There's a major IT/Business school in Pyongyang largely staffed and administered by U.S. based missionaries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Science_and_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Scienc...

nemo44x 6y ago

At some point I imagine the best thing we could do, besides ignorethem, is to send weapons. Have the CIA arrange gun and bomb smuggling operations; airdrop rifles and ammunition and rations if needed. Give the people an opportunity to revolt and if they choose not to then let them live the life they want.

jhwang5 6y ago

It's actually possible that the NK hackers are taking blame on behalf of CCP. Would take too long to explain fully. Just imagine NK as a "blame proxy" for CCP when it comes to the edgiest operations

phobosanomaly 6y ago
Sounds plausible, but is there any sort of evidence or indication that this is happening?
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  The US press paints N. Korea as a rogue nation, but it's not. N. Korea is a client (vassal) state of China. The CCP is involved in N. Korea because: 1) It's a border buffer country, which has security implications and is the main reason China invaded Korea during the Korean War. 2) China doesn't want millions of starving refugees crossing their border. 3) As a client state, N. Korea will adhere to CCP ideology directives. The CCP can summon N. Korean leadership any time it wants to. 4) The CCP doesn't care if N. Korea launches nuclear weapons at the US since that has always been the ideological goal of the CCP. (Mao was angry when Russia removed their nukes from Cuba.) So questions like, "Is N. Korea taking blame for CCP hacking" or vice versa is not significant since they work in concert anyway. You might as well ask, "Do Russia and Cuba agree on trade?"
- not1ofU 6y ago
  the same evidence thats used to blame everything else on the Russians.

maxden 6y ago

There was the timber hauling truck converted into an ICBM launcher. With the deforestation apparently happening in North Korea it probably wasn't the best thing to sell them regardless. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china-truck-idUSKBN19P1J3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-china...

hnbad 6y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. I can see you make two diametrically opposed arguments with that example: A) Even seemingly harmless tools can be turned into dangerous weapons and they've done so before, so the best course of action is to not support them at all because they'll just turn around and try to hurt us. B) Even seemingly harmless tools can be turned into dangerous weapons so there's no point in obsessing whether what we give them could be used for nefarious purposes as they'll just come up with a way to hurt us if they want to anyway.
- not1ofU 6y ago
  C) Dont forget FOSS ;-)

yongjik 6y ago

I understand your point, but the fear sounds overblown. North Korea isn't some isolated kingdom in the Andes - they have a long border with China, over which the US has no control. If NK wants to raise a hacker army, I don't think the existence of some used computers donated by American churches would make a meaningful difference. * That said, we also have to consider the danger of the US government deciding the donation is illegal, so ... (shrug)

ehsankia 6y ago
My knowledge of NK is fairly limited, but I genuinely don't see what help would computers do to NK. Do they have access to the internet? What good do computers do without an internet connection? Maybe you can play some games, maybe you can load some software like spreadsheets but that's assuming they have books to learn how to use it. Would it be for training so they can get some better jobs? Are there computer jobs?
- abraae 6y ago
  Back in the old days we learned about computers without the internet. You had mainly paper documentation. With 10 or so of the best tech manuals to read, and a bunch of old machines to network together, and a few CDs of useful software, the right person could easily become highly skilled. And by definition hacking means working out things that aren't already known (by many at least) so the absence of say stackoverflow and the other joys of the internet wouldn't slow those guys down either.
- yongjik 6y ago
  The economy of North Korea is an enigma, but despite decades of very poor planning, they do have industry. I'm sure they have jobs that need basic computer literacy.
- function_seven 6y ago
  I had a computer for 12 years before my first Internet connection. Actually didn't have a modem at all. It was hugely influential in my development. I drew things, animated things, made music, wrote school papers and a neighborhood newsletter, made videos with wipes and title cards, wrote my first resume (at 15, hah), and of course played some games. I give a tremendous amount of credit to having that in the home for my current computer literacy and career path.

bane 6y ago

There's a major IT/Business school in Pyongyang largely staffed and administered by U.S. based missionaries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Science_and_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Scienc...