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in the face of sanctions, NK has to get creative. Sad that a generation of talented people is basically harvested by the gov for hacking and theft "The process

in the face of sanctions, NK has to get creative. Sad that a generation of talented people is basically harvested by the gov for hacking and theft "The process by which North Korean hackers are spotted and trained appears to be similar to the way Olympians were once cultivated in the former Soviet bloc. Martyn Williams, a fellow at the Stimson Center think tank who studies North Korea, explained that, whereas conventional warfare requires the expensive and onerous development of weaponry, a hacking program needs only intelligent people. And North Korea, despite lacking many other resources, “is not short of human capital."

sammorrowdrums 5y ago
I went to a talk by a couple of defectors, one of which was an embassy employee and they explained that they were always tasked with earning money through means like selling illegal alcohol etc. sanctions obviously make legal trade impossible with many countries.
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  From what I understood there is a huge flow of drugs like meth from NK into China. They are basically just a mafia state who will do anything for money.
  - dmingod666 5y ago
    As opposed to America? Which does wars to protect its dollar hegemony and loot oil around the world. Toppling democracies to install puppet dictators.
    - usefulcat 5y ago
      Parent said nothing about the US. You have a valid point, but there are far better ways to make it than with this complete non-sequitur.
      - yesenadam 5y ago
        Yes, but.. it doesn't seem completely a complete non-sequitur. Thoughts about whataboutism: When you say "Y is basically just a mafia state who will do anything for money", there seems an unspoken premise "My country X is not like that/is better than that." And to someone to whom X is not better than Y in that respect, the initial claim sounds like "Y is evil because they have two legs", when X has two legs also. It sounds ignorantly hypocritical. How else to point out "Uh, but you also have two legs, although you're acting like you don't."? The problem wasn't that the first claim wasn't true, but that it was spoken in a hypocritical way, saying one party is bad for a reason which applies equally to the other party. And to someone to whom both parties seem to have the bad condition, before they can hear or really respond to the "Y is bad" claim, you really have to deal with—justify—your own unspoken premise of "My own country X doesn't do the bad thing." Just saying "But X also does the same bad thing!" gets accused of whataboutism, as here. "Parent said nothing about X". True, not explicitly, but X appeared in the unspoken premises. Which loom large if you think one or more of them false. I'm not sure what the solution is. I guess maybe saying "I think you have an unspoken premise, which seems false to me, that your country X doesn't do the bad thing you are accusing Y of" at least has a milder tone.
- frashelaw 5y ago
  North Korean defectors are paid by South Korean govt and US-funded orgs in order to push propaganda about North Korea. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k... https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-22/problem-north-korea-s-celebrity-defectors https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-22/problem-north-korea-s...
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    Neither of those links support your claims.
    - mrobot 5y ago
      Here is a video that contains some accusations of bribery of defectors and other shady business by NIS (Korean CIA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktE_3PrJZO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktE_3PrJZO0
      - m00x 5y ago
        Ah yes, Youtube. A trusted source of information.
        techrat 5y ago
        "Youtube" itself is not a source of information. It is a site where people post videos. Journalists post videos on Youtube through BBC, Economist, Washington Post, Nightline/PBS, etc... Does their posting content on Youtube make them less credible? Judge the originator of the content, not who hosts it. Might as well go "Ah yes, the internet. A trusted source of information." That's how shallow your retort is.
      - jxramos 5y ago
        I'm curious what the AsianBoss would make of the video. His interviews with defectors always seemed so genuine. https://www.youtube.com/user/askasianboss https://www.youtube.com/user/askasianboss
- hnbad 5y ago
  Regardless of whether the accusations about defectors being coerced to make North Korea sound worse are true, honestly this just sounds like an obvious consequence. If you isolate a country economically by cutting off all legal ways for it to trade with the international community, it will have to rely on illegal ways. Generalized trade sanctions have time and again proven to be ineffective because they are so indiscriminate. They're meant to work as a deterrent, not a punishment. But the deterrent works with the threat of disrupting the economy, which only works short-term as the existing supply chains come to a halt and businesses panic. If you sit the sanctions out long enough, the economy will have already collapsed and will rebuild itself under the new restrictions. Once the economy has adapted, the sanctions are no longer a deterrent, they're just how things are, and the promise of conditionally lifting the sanctions feels like a trap because it would require changes to the economy that would again make it vulnerable to those sanctions if they were reinstated.
catgary 5y ago
Your heart just breaks for those kids competing in the IMO. Their peers from other nations are going to go to college, maybe stick with math but they have a million opportunities ahead of them to use their talents. Meanwhile these kids are getting conscripted into being crooks. I really can’t imagine how bitter that would make me feel.
- movedx 5y ago
  > Meanwhile these kids are getting conscripted into being crooks They're not crooks from their perspective. They're indoctrinated into hating the west, remember. As far as they're concerned they're likely to feel they're serving their nation and doing a good deed.
  - catgary 5y ago
    I don’t know - did every Soviet mathematician buy into their propaganda?
    - phobosanomaly 5y ago
      You can enjoy the intellectual challenge of what you do, while understanding that the political context of it is bullshit.
    - movedx 5y ago
      What?
    - willvarfar 5y ago
      Very tangential, but the story of Jim Simons is interesting. He was an American cryptographer who took a very public stance against the Vietnam War. Being forced to leave, he went and set up the world's most successful hedge fund, became a billionaire and led the nerdification of trading. There are lots of really really interesting interviews with him on YouTube.
    - hnbad 5y ago
      Well, enough Americans do for the NSA and CIA to have plenty of highly intelligent math geeks on staff. Or did you think the US doesn't do propaganda?
filomeno 5y ago
> Sad that a generation of talented people is basically harvested by the gov for hacking and theft What's wrong with that? Would it be better if they were harvested by corporations to just make far more questionable things?
- FredPret 5y ago
  Products and services are far more questionable than hacking and theft?
wongarsu 5y ago
"harvested for hacking and theft" in the same sense that any military "harvests people to turn them into killing machines"? You could equally well frame it as "they are given a chance to do their patriotic duty", "they serve their country", "they are given an amazing job opportunity". Your wording isn't wrong, but it is an unusually harsh way to describe a military operation.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  It's only bad when we don't like that country, I suppose.

sammorrowdrums 5y ago

I went to a talk by a couple of defectors, one of which was an embassy employee and they explained that they were always tasked with earning money through means like selling illegal alcohol etc. sanctions obviously make legal trade impossible with many countries.

BelenusMordred 5y ago
From what I understood there is a huge flow of drugs like meth from NK into China. They are basically just a mafia state who will do anything for money.
- dmingod666 5y ago
  As opposed to America? Which does wars to protect its dollar hegemony and loot oil around the world. Toppling democracies to install puppet dictators.
  - usefulcat 5y ago
    Parent said nothing about the US. You have a valid point, but there are far better ways to make it than with this complete non-sequitur.
    - yesenadam 5y ago
      Yes, but.. it doesn't seem completely a complete non-sequitur. Thoughts about whataboutism: When you say "Y is basically just a mafia state who will do anything for money", there seems an unspoken premise "My country X is not like that/is better than that." And to someone to whom X is not better than Y in that respect, the initial claim sounds like "Y is evil because they have two legs", when X has two legs also. It sounds ignorantly hypocritical. How else to point out "Uh, but you also have two legs, although you're acting like you don't."? The problem wasn't that the first claim wasn't true, but that it was spoken in a hypocritical way, saying one party is bad for a reason which applies equally to the other party. And to someone to whom both parties seem to have the bad condition, before they can hear or really respond to the "Y is bad" claim, you really have to deal with—justify—your own unspoken premise of "My own country X doesn't do the bad thing." Just saying "But X also does the same bad thing!" gets accused of whataboutism, as here. "Parent said nothing about X". True, not explicitly, but X appeared in the unspoken premises. Which loom large if you think one or more of them false. I'm not sure what the solution is. I guess maybe saying "I think you have an unspoken premise, which seems false to me, that your country X doesn't do the bad thing you are accusing Y of" at least has a milder tone.
frashelaw 5y ago
North Korean defectors are paid by South Korean govt and US-funded orgs in order to push propaganda about North Korea. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k... https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-22/problem-north-korea-s-celebrity-defectors https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-22/problem-north-korea-s...
- WalterGR 5y ago
  Neither of those links support your claims.
  - mrobot 5y ago
    Here is a video that contains some accusations of bribery of defectors and other shady business by NIS (Korean CIA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktE_3PrJZO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktE_3PrJZO0
    - m00x 5y ago
      Ah yes, Youtube. A trusted source of information.
      - techrat 5y ago
        "Youtube" itself is not a source of information. It is a site where people post videos. Journalists post videos on Youtube through BBC, Economist, Washington Post, Nightline/PBS, etc... Does their posting content on Youtube make them less credible? Judge the originator of the content, not who hosts it. Might as well go "Ah yes, the internet. A trusted source of information." That's how shallow your retort is.
    - jxramos 5y ago
      I'm curious what the AsianBoss would make of the video. His interviews with defectors always seemed so genuine. https://www.youtube.com/user/askasianboss https://www.youtube.com/user/askasianboss
hnbad 5y ago
Regardless of whether the accusations about defectors being coerced to make North Korea sound worse are true, honestly this just sounds like an obvious consequence. If you isolate a country economically by cutting off all legal ways for it to trade with the international community, it will have to rely on illegal ways. Generalized trade sanctions have time and again proven to be ineffective because they are so indiscriminate. They're meant to work as a deterrent, not a punishment. But the deterrent works with the threat of disrupting the economy, which only works short-term as the existing supply chains come to a halt and businesses panic. If you sit the sanctions out long enough, the economy will have already collapsed and will rebuild itself under the new restrictions. Once the economy has adapted, the sanctions are no longer a deterrent, they're just how things are, and the promise of conditionally lifting the sanctions feels like a trap because it would require changes to the economy that would again make it vulnerable to those sanctions if they were reinstated.

catgary 5y ago

Your heart just breaks for those kids competing in the IMO. Their peers from other nations are going to go to college, maybe stick with math but they have a million opportunities ahead of them to use their talents. Meanwhile these kids are getting conscripted into being crooks. I really can’t imagine how bitter that would make me feel.

movedx 5y ago
> Meanwhile these kids are getting conscripted into being crooks They're not crooks from their perspective. They're indoctrinated into hating the west, remember. As far as they're concerned they're likely to feel they're serving their nation and doing a good deed.
- catgary 5y ago
  I don’t know - did every Soviet mathematician buy into their propaganda?
  - phobosanomaly 5y ago
    You can enjoy the intellectual challenge of what you do, while understanding that the political context of it is bullshit.
  - movedx 5y ago
    What?
  - willvarfar 5y ago
    Very tangential, but the story of Jim Simons is interesting. He was an American cryptographer who took a very public stance against the Vietnam War. Being forced to leave, he went and set up the world's most successful hedge fund, became a billionaire and led the nerdification of trading. There are lots of really really interesting interviews with him on YouTube.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    Well, enough Americans do for the NSA and CIA to have plenty of highly intelligent math geeks on staff. Or did you think the US doesn't do propaganda?

filomeno 5y ago

> Sad that a generation of talented people is basically harvested by the gov for hacking and theft What's wrong with that? Would it be better if they were harvested by corporations to just make far more questionable things?

FredPret 5y ago
Products and services are far more questionable than hacking and theft?

wongarsu 5y ago

"harvested for hacking and theft" in the same sense that any military "harvests people to turn them into killing machines"? You could equally well frame it as "they are given a chance to do their patriotic duty", "they serve their country", "they are given an amazing job opportunity". Your wording isn't wrong, but it is an unusually harsh way to describe a military operation.

andrewzah 5y ago
It's only bad when we don't like that country, I suppose.