5 ms·

That's because you're looking at it in terms of USD, when you look at it in terms of satoshis per byte, it's actually much lower [1][3]. And if you want to avoi

That's because you're looking at it in terms of USD, when you look at it in terms of satoshis per byte, it's actually much lower [1][3]. And if you want to avoid the fees because you expect to transact a lot, just use lightning network, exchanges are starting to integrate it[2]. edit: I should also add that, when you look at it in terms of USD, the average transaction fee is a drop in the bucket compared to the average transaction value [4], which to me says that it's becoming the settlement layer as expected. 1: https://statoshi.info/d/000000017/fee-estimates?orgId=1&from=now-5y&to=now https://statoshi.info/d/000000017/fee-estimates?orgId=1&from... 2: https://www.coindesk.com/okex-exchange-to-integrate-bitcoins-lightning-network-for-faster-cheaper-transactions https://www.coindesk.com/okex-exchange-to-integrate-bitcoins... 3: https://www.bitcoinfees.info/ https://www.bitcoinfees.info/ 4: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionvalue-btc-xrp.html https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionvalue-btc-xr...

ccortes 5y ago
> which to me says that it's becoming the settlement layer as expected To me it says that only rich whales get to transact in bitcoin. Pretty sad that now regular people get excluded from something that was conceived as p2p internet cash.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  Not really, it just means big centralized companies are settling their end-users funds on the blockchain while providing them access to it practically free. Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. And soon enough channel factories should make it possible to create multiple lightning channels at once, so an end-user will never pay the whole channel opening fee by themselves. As long as Bitcoin's layer 1 stays secure/open/decentralized, the average non-whale user will be able to use it through these other layers just as easily.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    > Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. So people are using Bitcoin through trusted (in the security sense[1]) intermediaries. These intermediaries are basically banks, no? Aren't they subject to all the same bad incentives as a "traditional" bank? Except their deposit are (probably?) not insured against loss. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_third_party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_third_party > 'Trusted' means that a system needs to be trusted to act in your interests, but it has the option (either at will or involuntarily) to act against your interests.
    - rawtxapp 5y ago
      It's the short term option, yes. Well, they have to hold on to the coins, because once they lose it, they can't turn to Fed for a bailout. Lots of custodians have insurance in place [1]. In the long term, lightning is here and works, as exchanges keep integrating it, that's where most of the end-user funds for small amounts would live. 1: https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/bitgo-expands-cold-storage-insurance-194938290.html https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/bitgo-expands-cold-st...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ccortes 5y ago
    > Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. I'm not American, but as far as I know you can't withdraw bitcoin from paypal, cash app or venmo.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
AlexandrB 5y ago
I'm a long-time bitcoin skeptic, and I don't really understand the lightning network. If the lightning network doesn't depend on PoW for every transaction then how is it different than a normal database-backed payment network? I read that it involves smart contracts, have those been sufficiently audited against bugs? > That's because you're looking at it in terms of USD, when you look at it in terms of satoshis per byte, it's actually much lower [1][3]. This is meaningless to me. Why would I care about transaction costs in satoshis per byte? I thought bitcoin is supposed to be a currency that replaces USD. At the current transaction fees bitcoin is not usable as a currency unless you're buying very expensive items.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I'm a long-time bitcoin skeptic, and I don't really understand the lightning network. If the lightning network doesn't depend on PoW for every transaction then how is it different than a normal database-backed payment network? I read that it involves smart contracts, have those been sufficiently audited against bugs? https://wiki.ion.radar.tech/tech/lightning/lightning-network https://wiki.ion.radar.tech/tech/lightning/lightning-network tl;dr: you and the counterparty negotiate a series of transactions that represent the final closing balance. As funds are sent/received the transaction is updated. There's various mechanisms in there to prevent a misbehaving peer from broadcasting an older transaction, running away with the funds, or having your funds frozen if they ghost you.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  A transaction is essentially just a signed cryptographic message broadcast to the network, just imagine that instead of broadcasting it, you keep iterating on it, you pass funds around, keep signing these messages, etc. There are measures to make sure you don't broadcast an old/outdated transaction to the network. It's not meant for buying coffee, for those you would use layer 2 or centralized entities like Paypal, etc. The blockchain contains every single transaction ever made forever, people in 100 years from now don't need to be aware of every coffee transaction, that just wouldn't be efficient.
noxer 5y ago
I knew this would be posted. Such an absurdly stupid reasoning. You wanna pay for your coffee or buy car or whatever and the fee is slapped on top of the price. Who the heck would care about satishis per byte. Its % of the transacted value that matters. High fees means low value Tx are no longer "possible". >which to me says that it's becoming the settlement layer as expected. So it went from p2p cash to store of value to a settlement layer in just 10 years. What is it expected to be in the next 10 years?
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  In 10 years from now, everyone would have easy to use/intuitive lightning network wallets and all exchanges would have integrated it. Again, no need to keep track of every coffee transaction permanently forever on the blockchain, it's just not efficient.
  - the_local_host 5y ago
    Why bother settling on the blockchain at all? The second-layer transactions could just float, like the dollar separated from the gold standard.
    - rawtxapp 5y ago
      For sure, you can keep channels open indefinitely. It won't be like dollars separated from gold though, it's still the same exact Bitcoin and the fund gets allocated at the opening of the channel.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - gruez 5y ago
      > The second-layer transactions could just float, like the dollar separated from the gold standard. You can't mint more bitcoins on the lightning network. There's a 1:1 relation between what's on the lightning network and what's on the blockchain. This is as opposed to fiat (zero relation, currency units can be generated at will), or gold standard in practice (the central bank only having enough gold for a fraction of the notes issued to be redeemed).
CyberDildonics 5y ago
The lightning network has been promised for 7 years now. Exactly what people predicted has happened. It doesn't work, no one wants it, it tries to solve a problem that is already solved by not using a crippled crypto currency with the transaction bandwidth of a dial up modem. Ethereum is multiple times btc in transaction throughput. Bitcoin cash has had higher transaction throughput for a while now too. The people that made bitcoin originally were geniuses. The dunces that made the lightning network are nonsense charlatans. Go to /r/bitcoin and start asking questions, then see how long it takes to banned. Anything other than btc and ethereum works for avoiding high transaction fees. Why would someone use a hacky second layer and defeat the purpose of crypto currencies when even a joke clone like dogecoin works better? Crypto currency works so well it has to be purposely broken like bitcoin to stop working well. Right now the commonly accepted cryptocurrencies with reasonable transaction fees are litecoin and bitcoin cash with dogecoin being around $1 USD. That isn't impossible to work with but it isn't necessary.
BLanen 5y ago
Lightning network is a non-workable piece of shit that REQUIRES AN ON-CHAIN TRANSACTION TO SET UP A DEBIT CHANNEL BETWEEN WALLETS

ccortes 5y ago

> which to me says that it's becoming the settlement layer as expected To me it says that only rich whales get to transact in bitcoin. Pretty sad that now regular people get excluded from something that was conceived as p2p internet cash.

rawtxapp 5y ago
Not really, it just means big centralized companies are settling their end-users funds on the blockchain while providing them access to it practically free. Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. And soon enough channel factories should make it possible to create multiple lightning channels at once, so an end-user will never pay the whole channel opening fee by themselves. As long as Bitcoin's layer 1 stays secure/open/decentralized, the average non-whale user will be able to use it through these other layers just as easily.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. So people are using Bitcoin through trusted (in the security sense[1]) intermediaries. These intermediaries are basically banks, no? Aren't they subject to all the same bad incentives as a "traditional" bank? Except their deposit are (probably?) not insured against loss. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_third_party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_third_party > 'Trusted' means that a system needs to be trusted to act in your interests, but it has the option (either at will or involuntarily) to act against your interests.
  - rawtxapp 5y ago
    It's the short term option, yes. Well, they have to hold on to the coins, because once they lose it, they can't turn to Fed for a bailout. Lots of custodians have insurance in place [1]. In the long term, lightning is here and works, as exchanges keep integrating it, that's where most of the end-user funds for small amounts would live. 1: https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/bitgo-expands-cold-storage-insurance-194938290.html https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/bitgo-expands-cold-st...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ccortes 5y ago
  > Regular people right now use it through Paypal, Cash app, Venmo, Coinbase, etc. I'm not American, but as far as I know you can't withdraw bitcoin from paypal, cash app or venmo.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

AlexandrB 5y ago

I'm a long-time bitcoin skeptic, and I don't really understand the lightning network. If the lightning network doesn't depend on PoW for every transaction then how is it different than a normal database-backed payment network? I read that it involves smart contracts, have those been sufficiently audited against bugs? > That's because you're looking at it in terms of USD, when you look at it in terms of satoshis per byte, it's actually much lower [1][3]. This is meaningless to me. Why would I care about transaction costs in satoshis per byte? I thought bitcoin is supposed to be a currency that replaces USD. At the current transaction fees bitcoin is not usable as a currency unless you're buying very expensive items.

gruez 5y ago
>I'm a long-time bitcoin skeptic, and I don't really understand the lightning network. If the lightning network doesn't depend on PoW for every transaction then how is it different than a normal database-backed payment network? I read that it involves smart contracts, have those been sufficiently audited against bugs? https://wiki.ion.radar.tech/tech/lightning/lightning-network https://wiki.ion.radar.tech/tech/lightning/lightning-network tl;dr: you and the counterparty negotiate a series of transactions that represent the final closing balance. As funds are sent/received the transaction is updated. There's various mechanisms in there to prevent a misbehaving peer from broadcasting an older transaction, running away with the funds, or having your funds frozen if they ghost you.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rawtxapp 5y ago
A transaction is essentially just a signed cryptographic message broadcast to the network, just imagine that instead of broadcasting it, you keep iterating on it, you pass funds around, keep signing these messages, etc. There are measures to make sure you don't broadcast an old/outdated transaction to the network. It's not meant for buying coffee, for those you would use layer 2 or centralized entities like Paypal, etc. The blockchain contains every single transaction ever made forever, people in 100 years from now don't need to be aware of every coffee transaction, that just wouldn't be efficient.

noxer 5y ago

I knew this would be posted. Such an absurdly stupid reasoning. You wanna pay for your coffee or buy car or whatever and the fee is slapped on top of the price. Who the heck would care about satishis per byte. Its % of the transacted value that matters. High fees means low value Tx are no longer "possible". >which to me says that it's becoming the settlement layer as expected. So it went from p2p cash to store of value to a settlement layer in just 10 years. What is it expected to be in the next 10 years?

rawtxapp 5y ago
In 10 years from now, everyone would have easy to use/intuitive lightning network wallets and all exchanges would have integrated it. Again, no need to keep track of every coffee transaction permanently forever on the blockchain, it's just not efficient.
- the_local_host 5y ago
  Why bother settling on the blockchain at all? The second-layer transactions could just float, like the dollar separated from the gold standard.
  - rawtxapp 5y ago
    For sure, you can keep channels open indefinitely. It won't be like dollars separated from gold though, it's still the same exact Bitcoin and the fund gets allocated at the opening of the channel.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - gruez 5y ago
    > The second-layer transactions could just float, like the dollar separated from the gold standard. You can't mint more bitcoins on the lightning network. There's a 1:1 relation between what's on the lightning network and what's on the blockchain. This is as opposed to fiat (zero relation, currency units can be generated at will), or gold standard in practice (the central bank only having enough gold for a fraction of the notes issued to be redeemed).

CyberDildonics 5y ago

The lightning network has been promised for 7 years now. Exactly what people predicted has happened. It doesn't work, no one wants it, it tries to solve a problem that is already solved by not using a crippled crypto currency with the transaction bandwidth of a dial up modem. Ethereum is multiple times btc in transaction throughput. Bitcoin cash has had higher transaction throughput for a while now too. The people that made bitcoin originally were geniuses. The dunces that made the lightning network are nonsense charlatans. Go to /r/bitcoin and start asking questions, then see how long it takes to banned. Anything other than btc and ethereum works for avoiding high transaction fees. Why would someone use a hacky second layer and defeat the purpose of crypto currencies when even a joke clone like dogecoin works better? Crypto currency works so well it has to be purposely broken like bitcoin to stop working well. Right now the commonly accepted cryptocurrencies with reasonable transaction fees are litecoin and bitcoin cash with dogecoin being around $1 USD. That isn't impossible to work with but it isn't necessary.

BLanen 5y ago

Lightning network is a non-workable piece of shit that REQUIRES AN ON-CHAIN TRANSACTION TO SET UP A DEBIT CHANNEL BETWEEN WALLETS