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Same. I help put deals together with some experience in SE Asia. The ability to enforce contract and property rights in the US, with ready access to the court

Same. I help put deals together with some experience in SE Asia. The ability to enforce contract and property rights in the US, with ready access to the courts and relatively clear rules, sets the US apart in terms of business efficiency and predictability. In my assessment, it's a large part of what's made the US so prosperous. In contrast, dealing with corrupt officials in smaller countries in SE Asia is just wild.

selimnairb 6y ago
Right the US has rule of law for businesses. What about poor people? Not so much. See: civil asset forfeiture, being jailed for petty fines you can’t afford to pay, insane fees used by low-tax jurisdictions to fund their courts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- FredPret 6y ago
  It’s certainly not perfect, I agree with your specific points. But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. It’s vastly better to a degree that left me totally mindfucked for years after I moved to the first world.
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    > But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. I trust your observations of where you came from but I believe this is over-generalizing to places you may not have personal experience with.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    It is much better if you're not the target of the system, which in the US means that you're white and/or middle class or better.
DubiousPusher 6y ago
Yes, the U.S. has gone to great length to ensure the smooth operation of business. In fact you might say this is essentially the primary purpose of U.S. legal system. As an example, one researcher looked at all the Supreme Court cases involving the 14th amendment between 1870 and 1940. The 14th amendment as you'll recall is an amendment focused on the individual equal protections people have under the law. I cannot recall the figures exactly, but of some 100+ cases ~70% pertained to business and around a dozen were focused on violations of individual's rights. Property rights are an especially important tool when it comes to the operation of a materially wealthy society. But their imposition does not somehow guarantee that a society is more just or fair and less corrupt than any other. Edit: I looked up the figures in my notes. The paper involved all Supreme Court cases involving the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The court struck down 232 state laws, 179 of the decisions were in favor of corporations, 55 were in favor of the growing railroads and 9 were in favor of individual black petitioners. The paper isn't online and I don't have access to it anymore to check but I believe it is this paper. "Protecting Corporations Instead of the Poor" by Alec Karakatsanis in Harvard Law Review 275.
- canadianfella 6y ago
  Have you considered that cases involving individuals are easier for lesser courts to decide? Black and white cases don’t make it to the supreme court.
- coliveira 6y ago
  Correct, the US has an excellent legal system for the maintenance of property and commerce, but from the human point of view it is a disaster. After all, just considering the maintenance of racial disparities at the judicial level over several decades will tell that this is not a functioning system.
  - hcurtiss 6y ago
    Can you consider it such a "disaster" when so many from all around the world are desperate to move here? I realize that's kind of a cliche' right-wing talking point, but it still seems some relatively is merited.
FredPret 6y ago
You’re right. The US has predictable rules and outcomes and very civilization-friendly laws. It also has the power to enforce law & order within its own borders. By contrast, especially in Central Africa, the borders on the map are largely aspirational on the part of the governments. Even the word “Democratic” in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a bad joke. The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government.
- user3939382 6y ago
  > The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government. I would argue this is a false statement. There are pockets of instability there, especially near Goma and Virunga or very rural areas. The last few years especially have been unstable. But if you look at the country as a whole (which is the size of all Western Europe) over the last 15 years, the size of the territory not controlled by the internationally recognized legitimate government has been very small.
  - FredPret 6y ago
    We can argue about definiton of words like legitimate, control, and “very small”. But a better test is this: would you go for a drive there with your family? Would you invest billions in a multi-decade mining project there - if you had to depend on the government’s version of law & order only?
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      You are making the assumption that "investing billions of dollars" is synonymous with all other forms of justice. During the Junta in Chile for example, you were very safe to invest. You were probably even safe to go for a drive. But the system was grotesque on the whole. I think the point people are trying to make is that 1) It varies far too much from country to country to generalize in this way. 2) Justice is patchy and even across many areas of law depending on where you are.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Well yes, this is the problem. The US legal system is great if you're dealing with massive amounts of money in the hopes of making more money. Other aspects are much worse. Also, most legal systems are generally good for this purpose, you just have to use your money judiciously in bribes instead of lawyer's fees.
monocasa 6y ago
Not once, but multiple times I've had police simply steal cash from me in the states. Not civil forfeiture, but the cash in a wallet disappears on it's way to where it's held temporarily, no crimes involved. And from rich areas like Boulder, CO. I have not seen the lack of low level corruption in the states compared to other countries. Like in other countries they simply confine their corruption to those powerless to do anything about it.
- erdos4d 6y ago
  This exactly. In the US it is common for police to steal from citizens if they feel they can get away with it, I know many people who have had it happen to them personally, both with cash and possessions.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
  Did this happen at a traffic stop? Did you give them your wallet when they asked for your license? I don’t think I’ve ever given a cop my wallet. I take the ID out and hand that to them. If they asked me for the wallet, I would feel powerless to say no, I just have never been asked. I’m not defending the police here, this behavior is disgusting, just trying to understand the circumstances in which this occurred. Also, I’m low-key wondering if I should start handing the cop my wallet. They never give me a warning, maybe if they got some money out of the interaction they’d start...
  - monocasa 6y ago
    It hasn't happened at a traffic stop. Cameras like dashcams seem to have an effect on police behavior.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  What are you doing in your life that you've had your wallet confiscated by the police multiple times? Not judging, just curious.
  - monocasa 6y ago

selimnairb 6y ago

Right the US has rule of law for businesses. What about poor people? Not so much. See: civil asset forfeiture, being jailed for petty fines you can’t afford to pay, insane fees used by low-tax jurisdictions to fund their courts.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
FredPret 6y ago
It’s certainly not perfect, I agree with your specific points. But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. It’s vastly better to a degree that left me totally mindfucked for years after I moved to the first world.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  > But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. I trust your observations of where you came from but I believe this is over-generalizing to places you may not have personal experience with.
- coliveira 6y ago
  It is much better if you're not the target of the system, which in the US means that you're white and/or middle class or better.

DubiousPusher 6y ago

Yes, the U.S. has gone to great length to ensure the smooth operation of business. In fact you might say this is essentially the primary purpose of U.S. legal system. As an example, one researcher looked at all the Supreme Court cases involving the 14th amendment between 1870 and 1940. The 14th amendment as you'll recall is an amendment focused on the individual equal protections people have under the law. I cannot recall the figures exactly, but of some 100+ cases ~70% pertained to business and around a dozen were focused on violations of individual's rights. Property rights are an especially important tool when it comes to the operation of a materially wealthy society. But their imposition does not somehow guarantee that a society is more just or fair and less corrupt than any other. Edit: I looked up the figures in my notes. The paper involved all Supreme Court cases involving the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The court struck down 232 state laws, 179 of the decisions were in favor of corporations, 55 were in favor of the growing railroads and 9 were in favor of individual black petitioners. The paper isn't online and I don't have access to it anymore to check but I believe it is this paper. "Protecting Corporations Instead of the Poor" by Alec Karakatsanis in Harvard Law Review 275.

canadianfella 6y ago
Have you considered that cases involving individuals are easier for lesser courts to decide? Black and white cases don’t make it to the supreme court.
coliveira 6y ago
Correct, the US has an excellent legal system for the maintenance of property and commerce, but from the human point of view it is a disaster. After all, just considering the maintenance of racial disparities at the judicial level over several decades will tell that this is not a functioning system.
- hcurtiss 6y ago
  Can you consider it such a "disaster" when so many from all around the world are desperate to move here? I realize that's kind of a cliche' right-wing talking point, but it still seems some relatively is merited.

FredPret 6y ago

You’re right. The US has predictable rules and outcomes and very civilization-friendly laws. It also has the power to enforce law & order within its own borders. By contrast, especially in Central Africa, the borders on the map are largely aspirational on the part of the governments. Even the word “Democratic” in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a bad joke. The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government.

user3939382 6y ago
> The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government. I would argue this is a false statement. There are pockets of instability there, especially near Goma and Virunga or very rural areas. The last few years especially have been unstable. But if you look at the country as a whole (which is the size of all Western Europe) over the last 15 years, the size of the territory not controlled by the internationally recognized legitimate government has been very small.
- FredPret 6y ago
  We can argue about definiton of words like legitimate, control, and “very small”. But a better test is this: would you go for a drive there with your family? Would you invest billions in a multi-decade mining project there - if you had to depend on the government’s version of law & order only?
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    You are making the assumption that "investing billions of dollars" is synonymous with all other forms of justice. During the Junta in Chile for example, you were very safe to invest. You were probably even safe to go for a drive. But the system was grotesque on the whole. I think the point people are trying to make is that 1) It varies far too much from country to country to generalize in this way. 2) Justice is patchy and even across many areas of law depending on where you are.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Well yes, this is the problem. The US legal system is great if you're dealing with massive amounts of money in the hopes of making more money. Other aspects are much worse. Also, most legal systems are generally good for this purpose, you just have to use your money judiciously in bribes instead of lawyer's fees.

monocasa 6y ago

Not once, but multiple times I've had police simply steal cash from me in the states. Not civil forfeiture, but the cash in a wallet disappears on it's way to where it's held temporarily, no crimes involved. And from rich areas like Boulder, CO. I have not seen the lack of low level corruption in the states compared to other countries. Like in other countries they simply confine their corruption to those powerless to do anything about it.

erdos4d 6y ago
This exactly. In the US it is common for police to steal from citizens if they feel they can get away with it, I know many people who have had it happen to them personally, both with cash and possessions.
fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
Did this happen at a traffic stop? Did you give them your wallet when they asked for your license? I don’t think I’ve ever given a cop my wallet. I take the ID out and hand that to them. If they asked me for the wallet, I would feel powerless to say no, I just have never been asked. I’m not defending the police here, this behavior is disgusting, just trying to understand the circumstances in which this occurred. Also, I’m low-key wondering if I should start handing the cop my wallet. They never give me a warning, maybe if they got some money out of the interaction they’d start...
- monocasa 6y ago
  It hasn't happened at a traffic stop. Cameras like dashcams seem to have an effect on police behavior.
oh_sigh 6y ago
What are you doing in your life that you've had your wallet confiscated by the police multiple times? Not judging, just curious.
- monocasa 6y ago