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Most people may think I’m being pessimistic and jaded. But I think these rankings are hilarious (in a bad sense). Just like the corruption rankings that come ou

Most people may think I’m being pessimistic and jaded. But I think these rankings are hilarious (in a bad sense). Just like the corruption rankings that come out. The US gets a green square and a high rank, smaller countries are corrupt and unfair. I could fill up paragraphs about how corrupt and dysfunctional our (US) legal and political systems are. Meanwhile I spent a long time in Central Africa (a red square country) and know to compare. I don’t get the purpose of these rankings.

akarma 6y ago
Looking at the WJP Rule of Law Index linked above, it's considering factors like constraints on government powers, absence of corruption, and fundamental rights. As someone involved in law in the US, the US is really good at these types of things. People, including Americans who have lived here their entire lives, are consistently amazed when they learn the power of the court and how functional it all has managed to be.
FredPret 6y ago
You think Central Africa is less corrupt and more just than the USA? Jeez, that takes the cake hey. I’m from Africa, have left now, and this is pure nonsense. The USA doesn’t have to be literally perfect for it to be a good place.
- hcurtiss 6y ago
  Same. I help put deals together with some experience in SE Asia. The ability to enforce contract and property rights in the US, with ready access to the courts and relatively clear rules, sets the US apart in terms of business efficiency and predictability. In my assessment, it's a large part of what's made the US so prosperous. In contrast, dealing with corrupt officials in smaller countries in SE Asia is just wild.
  - selimnairb 6y ago
    Right the US has rule of law for businesses. What about poor people? Not so much. See: civil asset forfeiture, being jailed for petty fines you can’t afford to pay, insane fees used by low-tax jurisdictions to fund their courts.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - FredPret 6y ago
      It’s certainly not perfect, I agree with your specific points. But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. It’s vastly better to a degree that left me totally mindfucked for years after I moved to the first world.
      - DubiousPusher 6y ago
        > But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. I trust your observations of where you came from but I believe this is over-generalizing to places you may not have personal experience with.
      - coliveira 6y ago
        It is much better if you're not the target of the system, which in the US means that you're white and/or middle class or better.
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    Yes, the U.S. has gone to great length to ensure the smooth operation of business. In fact you might say this is essentially the primary purpose of U.S. legal system. As an example, one researcher looked at all the Supreme Court cases involving the 14th amendment between 1870 and 1940. The 14th amendment as you'll recall is an amendment focused on the individual equal protections people have under the law. I cannot recall the figures exactly, but of some 100+ cases ~70% pertained to business and around a dozen were focused on violations of individual's rights. Property rights are an especially important tool when it comes to the operation of a materially wealthy society. But their imposition does not somehow guarantee that a society is more just or fair and less corrupt than any other. Edit: I looked up the figures in my notes. The paper involved all Supreme Court cases involving the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The court struck down 232 state laws, 179 of the decisions were in favor of corporations, 55 were in favor of the growing railroads and 9 were in favor of individual black petitioners. The paper isn't online and I don't have access to it anymore to check but I believe it is this paper. "Protecting Corporations Instead of the Poor" by Alec Karakatsanis in Harvard Law Review 275.
    - canadianfella 6y ago
      Have you considered that cases involving individuals are easier for lesser courts to decide? Black and white cases don’t make it to the supreme court.
    - coliveira 6y ago
      Correct, the US has an excellent legal system for the maintenance of property and commerce, but from the human point of view it is a disaster. After all, just considering the maintenance of racial disparities at the judicial level over several decades will tell that this is not a functioning system.
      - hcurtiss 6y ago
        Can you consider it such a "disaster" when so many from all around the world are desperate to move here? I realize that's kind of a cliche' right-wing talking point, but it still seems some relatively is merited.
  - FredPret 6y ago
    You’re right. The US has predictable rules and outcomes and very civilization-friendly laws. It also has the power to enforce law & order within its own borders. By contrast, especially in Central Africa, the borders on the map are largely aspirational on the part of the governments. Even the word “Democratic” in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a bad joke. The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government.
    - user3939382 6y ago
      > The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government. I would argue this is a false statement. There are pockets of instability there, especially near Goma and Virunga or very rural areas. The last few years especially have been unstable. But if you look at the country as a whole (which is the size of all Western Europe) over the last 15 years, the size of the territory not controlled by the internationally recognized legitimate government has been very small.
      - FredPret 6y ago
        We can argue about definiton of words like legitimate, control, and “very small”. But a better test is this: would you go for a drive there with your family? Would you invest billions in a multi-decade mining project there - if you had to depend on the government’s version of law & order only?
        DubiousPusher 6y ago
        You are making the assumption that "investing billions of dollars" is synonymous with all other forms of justice. During the Junta in Chile for example, you were very safe to invest. You were probably even safe to go for a drive. But the system was grotesque on the whole. I think the point people are trying to make is that 1) It varies far too much from country to country to generalize in this way. 2) Justice is patchy and even across many areas of law depending on where you are.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Well yes, this is the problem. The US legal system is great if you're dealing with massive amounts of money in the hopes of making more money. Other aspects are much worse. Also, most legal systems are generally good for this purpose, you just have to use your money judiciously in bribes instead of lawyer's fees.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Not once, but multiple times I've had police simply steal cash from me in the states. Not civil forfeiture, but the cash in a wallet disappears on it's way to where it's held temporarily, no crimes involved. And from rich areas like Boulder, CO. I have not seen the lack of low level corruption in the states compared to other countries. Like in other countries they simply confine their corruption to those powerless to do anything about it.
    - erdos4d 6y ago
      This exactly. In the US it is common for police to steal from citizens if they feel they can get away with it, I know many people who have had it happen to them personally, both with cash and possessions.
    - fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
      Did this happen at a traffic stop? Did you give them your wallet when they asked for your license? I don’t think I’ve ever given a cop my wallet. I take the ID out and hand that to them. If they asked me for the wallet, I would feel powerless to say no, I just have never been asked. I’m not defending the police here, this behavior is disgusting, just trying to understand the circumstances in which this occurred. Also, I’m low-key wondering if I should start handing the cop my wallet. They never give me a warning, maybe if they got some money out of the interaction they’d start...
      - monocasa 6y ago
        It hasn't happened at a traffic stop. Cameras like dashcams seem to have an effect on police behavior.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      What are you doing in your life that you've had your wallet confiscated by the police multiple times? Not judging, just curious.
      - monocasa 6y ago
frozenlettuce 6y ago
I believe that the goal is to put pressure on those countries and make investors afraid of placing money there. Of course that a single ranking can't make this, but having multiple indexes + media narrative in this sense can create great leverage for unfair trade deals. If for example you consider lobbying=corruption (in many countries it is), then the US should indeed be many rankings below.
mym1990 6y ago
Seems like your rankings are mostly based on anecdotal experiences?
omginternets 6y ago
It seems like you're equating "there is corruption in the US" with "the US has more corruption than most other countries". I share your concern for corruption in the US, but I submit that you have lost your sense of proportion. The US is not -- by any stretch of the imagination -- anything less than "mostly not corrupt".
jessaustin 6y ago
Not to mention the fact that for any poor, poorly-ranked nation, it's likely that USA actions there include dropping bombs, assassinating socialist-leaning democratically-elected leadership, stationing troops and/or spooks, encouraging theft of natural resources, funding criminal terrorist anti-state groups, etc.
goodpoint 6y ago
Choosing how to measure these parameters and what relative weight to give each of them is inherently very political. US has been given a surprisingly high score while France and Italy are way below China! There seems to be quite a lot of bias in this kind of scoring.
neither_color 6y ago
That's because, as a consequence of our own transparency, on every thread on a political topic, the resident anarchist trolls are free to give us a history lesson of everything wrong the US has ever done. There are many countries where such types of posters would get arrested on some real or made-up charge for being hyper critical of the state. Most Americans who feel that we're some hyper-corrupt, irreparable place(systemically dysfunctional, if you will) have no idea how far other governments go to cover up their dirty deeds. Our rule of law is still the envy of people who come from places that rule by law.

akarma 6y ago

Looking at the WJP Rule of Law Index linked above, it's considering factors like constraints on government powers, absence of corruption, and fundamental rights. As someone involved in law in the US, the US is really good at these types of things. People, including Americans who have lived here their entire lives, are consistently amazed when they learn the power of the court and how functional it all has managed to be.

FredPret 6y ago

You think Central Africa is less corrupt and more just than the USA? Jeez, that takes the cake hey. I’m from Africa, have left now, and this is pure nonsense. The USA doesn’t have to be literally perfect for it to be a good place.

hcurtiss 6y ago
Same. I help put deals together with some experience in SE Asia. The ability to enforce contract and property rights in the US, with ready access to the courts and relatively clear rules, sets the US apart in terms of business efficiency and predictability. In my assessment, it's a large part of what's made the US so prosperous. In contrast, dealing with corrupt officials in smaller countries in SE Asia is just wild.
- selimnairb 6y ago
  Right the US has rule of law for businesses. What about poor people? Not so much. See: civil asset forfeiture, being jailed for petty fines you can’t afford to pay, insane fees used by low-tax jurisdictions to fund their courts.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - FredPret 6y ago
    It’s certainly not perfect, I agree with your specific points. But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. It’s vastly better to a degree that left me totally mindfucked for years after I moved to the first world.
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      > But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. I trust your observations of where you came from but I believe this is over-generalizing to places you may not have personal experience with.
    - coliveira 6y ago
      It is much better if you're not the target of the system, which in the US means that you're white and/or middle class or better.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  Yes, the U.S. has gone to great length to ensure the smooth operation of business. In fact you might say this is essentially the primary purpose of U.S. legal system. As an example, one researcher looked at all the Supreme Court cases involving the 14th amendment between 1870 and 1940. The 14th amendment as you'll recall is an amendment focused on the individual equal protections people have under the law. I cannot recall the figures exactly, but of some 100+ cases ~70% pertained to business and around a dozen were focused on violations of individual's rights. Property rights are an especially important tool when it comes to the operation of a materially wealthy society. But their imposition does not somehow guarantee that a society is more just or fair and less corrupt than any other. Edit: I looked up the figures in my notes. The paper involved all Supreme Court cases involving the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The court struck down 232 state laws, 179 of the decisions were in favor of corporations, 55 were in favor of the growing railroads and 9 were in favor of individual black petitioners. The paper isn't online and I don't have access to it anymore to check but I believe it is this paper. "Protecting Corporations Instead of the Poor" by Alec Karakatsanis in Harvard Law Review 275.
  - canadianfella 6y ago
    Have you considered that cases involving individuals are easier for lesser courts to decide? Black and white cases don’t make it to the supreme court.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    Correct, the US has an excellent legal system for the maintenance of property and commerce, but from the human point of view it is a disaster. After all, just considering the maintenance of racial disparities at the judicial level over several decades will tell that this is not a functioning system.
    - hcurtiss 6y ago
      Can you consider it such a "disaster" when so many from all around the world are desperate to move here? I realize that's kind of a cliche' right-wing talking point, but it still seems some relatively is merited.
- FredPret 6y ago
  You’re right. The US has predictable rules and outcomes and very civilization-friendly laws. It also has the power to enforce law & order within its own borders. By contrast, especially in Central Africa, the borders on the map are largely aspirational on the part of the governments. Even the word “Democratic” in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a bad joke. The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government.
  - user3939382 6y ago
    > The dominant local power in most of that landmass is more likely to be a warlord/crime boss than the government. I would argue this is a false statement. There are pockets of instability there, especially near Goma and Virunga or very rural areas. The last few years especially have been unstable. But if you look at the country as a whole (which is the size of all Western Europe) over the last 15 years, the size of the territory not controlled by the internationally recognized legitimate government has been very small.
    - FredPret 6y ago
      We can argue about definiton of words like legitimate, control, and “very small”. But a better test is this: would you go for a drive there with your family? Would you invest billions in a multi-decade mining project there - if you had to depend on the government’s version of law & order only?
      - DubiousPusher 6y ago
        You are making the assumption that "investing billions of dollars" is synonymous with all other forms of justice. During the Junta in Chile for example, you were very safe to invest. You were probably even safe to go for a drive. But the system was grotesque on the whole. I think the point people are trying to make is that 1) It varies far too much from country to country to generalize in this way. 2) Justice is patchy and even across many areas of law depending on where you are.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Well yes, this is the problem. The US legal system is great if you're dealing with massive amounts of money in the hopes of making more money. Other aspects are much worse. Also, most legal systems are generally good for this purpose, you just have to use your money judiciously in bribes instead of lawyer's fees.
- monocasa 6y ago
  Not once, but multiple times I've had police simply steal cash from me in the states. Not civil forfeiture, but the cash in a wallet disappears on it's way to where it's held temporarily, no crimes involved. And from rich areas like Boulder, CO. I have not seen the lack of low level corruption in the states compared to other countries. Like in other countries they simply confine their corruption to those powerless to do anything about it.
  - erdos4d 6y ago
    This exactly. In the US it is common for police to steal from citizens if they feel they can get away with it, I know many people who have had it happen to them personally, both with cash and possessions.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 6y ago
    Did this happen at a traffic stop? Did you give them your wallet when they asked for your license? I don’t think I’ve ever given a cop my wallet. I take the ID out and hand that to them. If they asked me for the wallet, I would feel powerless to say no, I just have never been asked. I’m not defending the police here, this behavior is disgusting, just trying to understand the circumstances in which this occurred. Also, I’m low-key wondering if I should start handing the cop my wallet. They never give me a warning, maybe if they got some money out of the interaction they’d start...
    - monocasa 6y ago
      It hasn't happened at a traffic stop. Cameras like dashcams seem to have an effect on police behavior.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    What are you doing in your life that you've had your wallet confiscated by the police multiple times? Not judging, just curious.
    - monocasa 6y ago

frozenlettuce 6y ago

I believe that the goal is to put pressure on those countries and make investors afraid of placing money there. Of course that a single ranking can't make this, but having multiple indexes + media narrative in this sense can create great leverage for unfair trade deals. If for example you consider lobbying=corruption (in many countries it is), then the US should indeed be many rankings below.

mym1990 6y ago

Seems like your rankings are mostly based on anecdotal experiences?

omginternets 6y ago

It seems like you're equating "there is corruption in the US" with "the US has more corruption than most other countries". I share your concern for corruption in the US, but I submit that you have lost your sense of proportion. The US is not -- by any stretch of the imagination -- anything less than "mostly not corrupt".

jessaustin 6y ago

Not to mention the fact that for any poor, poorly-ranked nation, it's likely that USA actions there include dropping bombs, assassinating socialist-leaning democratically-elected leadership, stationing troops and/or spooks, encouraging theft of natural resources, funding criminal terrorist anti-state groups, etc.

goodpoint 6y ago

Choosing how to measure these parameters and what relative weight to give each of them is inherently very political. US has been given a surprisingly high score while France and Italy are way below China! There seems to be quite a lot of bias in this kind of scoring.

neither_color 6y ago

That's because, as a consequence of our own transparency, on every thread on a political topic, the resident anarchist trolls are free to give us a history lesson of everything wrong the US has ever done. There are many countries where such types of posters would get arrested on some real or made-up charge for being hyper critical of the state. Most Americans who feel that we're some hyper-corrupt, irreparable place(systemically dysfunctional, if you will) have no idea how far other governments go to cover up their dirty deeds. Our rule of law is still the envy of people who come from places that rule by law.