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Presumably the argument is that a storage host might dutifully provide proofs of storage, but refuse to actually transfer your data to you later. This is true,

Presumably the argument is that a storage host might dutifully provide proofs of storage, but refuse to actually transfer your data to you later. This is true, but it's also true of centralized storage providers. The difference is that traditional providers are typically bound by SLAs -- something that a blockchain can't really offer. Instead, decentralized storage gives you the ability to store your data with dozens of independent entities; as long as the behavior of these entities is sufficiently uncorrelated, then it is highly likely that you will always be able to retrieve your data from some subset of them.

GoldenMonkey 5y ago
Sure it can provide an SLA. The code is the SLA. And is available for all to examine. Via opensource. And governance allows the community to change terms/accept code... moving forward.
- prepend 5y ago
  I can run the code behind a network that prevents outbound file transfers for large data. So the code shows file, all my proof of storage is correct and users are hosed. There’s no “proof of bandwidth” (yet)
  - opnitro 5y ago
    And again, even if we restrict ourselves to honest parties, hardware failures happen. Auditing the code tells you nothing about their infrastructure.
- mediocregopher 5y ago
  That's pretty hand-wavy. Anyone can read the published code, but you can't read the code being run by each individual entity in the network. Any individual might change their server to not make the stored data available to those paying for the storage. It's not _likely_, as that would negate the usefulness of the whole system if it became an issue, and therefore negate the cash flow into the system. Ultimately what's keeping the storage providers honest, whether they're centralized or decentralized, is that their future profit stream is based on their current behavior, and they presumably care about future profits. Code and SLAs ain't nothing but words.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    In fairness, real-company SLAs also tend to be hand-wavy. People like to pretend it's "they'll never be down more than X" or "if they're ever down more than X they'll give us a refund", but it's usually more like "the service provider said that it didn't count because only one part of their service was 'degraded', and after we threatened to take them to court they threw us a $13 discount'".
  - dntrkv 5y ago
    What if the system had 2 kinds of nodes, storage nodes, and then verification nodes. The storage nodes, store the data. The verification nodes, hit the storage nodes and verify the data is there and available. If the storage node fails a verification attempt, the storage node pays a fee. After a certain amount of failures, it is banned from the network. Disclaimer: I have no idea how these systems currently work.
    - wmf 5y ago
      This is basically how decentralized storage works except you can't really ban anyone so a storage provider will lose their deposit if they fail verification. As the article says, this forces storage providers to lock up capital and even that is no guarantee since there may be situations where losing the deposit is actually cheaper than staying in business.
cle 5y ago
S3 has no durability SLA, only an availability SLA. S3 also explicitly says it is not designed for 100% durability, but for a certian number of nines (99.999999999%).
- karpierz 5y ago
  Blockchain has neither a durability or availability SLA.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    An SLA just gives you the right to fee reductions or potential compensation for downtime. And not all SLAs are created equal. Meanwhile, for example, many blockchains such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, have 100% uptime. Not 99.99%...100%.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      "uptime" is such a weird concept when talking about decentralized networks as they are local-first and also build with many peers. And which "uptime" is being referred to here, read or write? If it's write, fees have definitely spiked at points to make it mostly useless for most people "using" it, but you can technically still write to it. And read is just always available as long as you have a copy of the data somewhere.
  - cle 5y ago
    I'm not sure that comparison makes much sense, it's like saying that HTTP has no SLA. AFAIU, Filecoin miners are free to offer SLAs for storage, and clients are free to enter into deals only with miners who offer such SLAs.
ChainOfFools 5y ago
> dozens of independent entities or one entity operating dozens of nodes? droplets are cheap, pwned windows boxes even cheaper. they don't even have to be cheap by regular Joe standards, they could be cheap by nation state, or ransomware gang standards. the point is there's no way to prove they are decentralized. this is an intrinsic, structural property of the cryptocurrency model, thus it is not a mere technical defect that will get solved "in the future" proving decentralization would require zero privacy, because you'd have to prove independent nodes are indeed independent and not part of a cartel, which means you'd have to somehow prove who operates each one. nothing but faith-based decentralization here, as with all cryptocurrencies.
yosito 5y ago
In the case of Storj, I believe that the redundancy between storage nodes is sufficient that something like only 20 out of 80 nodes need to respond in order to restore your data.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dnr 5y ago
The argument (of the second post) is that their behavior will be correlated because they all have (more or less) the same incentives and cost structure.
px43 5y ago
> SLAs -- something that a blockchain can't really offer. Hold on there, SLAs are actually something that blockchains are great at. Smart contracts provide cryptographic guarantees of service. In several of these types of systems, node runners must put up collateral as "stake" in exchange for collecting fees for their services. If a participant in the network identifies a misbehaving node (violation of SLA) then their stake can get slashed, or burned completely. If a Filecoin node claims to be holding data for someone, but is unable to provide it in a timely manner when legitimately requested to do so, they're in for some serious penalties. The great thing is that the consumer doesn't need to worry about some big company hiring expensive lawyers to weasel out of their contractual obligations. The rules are all readily transparent and enshrined as code that anyone can read and verify the validity of before participating.
- wmf 5y ago
  I think this speaks to the difference between what SLAs really are and what people wishfully think they are. People think an uptime SLA means "we will not go down much" but it really means "one day we will go down hard and we'll give you a refund (which will be insignificantly small compared to the pain we caused you)".

GoldenMonkey 5y ago

Sure it can provide an SLA. The code is the SLA. And is available for all to examine. Via opensource. And governance allows the community to change terms/accept code... moving forward.

prepend 5y ago
I can run the code behind a network that prevents outbound file transfers for large data. So the code shows file, all my proof of storage is correct and users are hosed. There’s no “proof of bandwidth” (yet)
- opnitro 5y ago
  And again, even if we restrict ourselves to honest parties, hardware failures happen. Auditing the code tells you nothing about their infrastructure.
mediocregopher 5y ago
That's pretty hand-wavy. Anyone can read the published code, but you can't read the code being run by each individual entity in the network. Any individual might change their server to not make the stored data available to those paying for the storage. It's not _likely_, as that would negate the usefulness of the whole system if it became an issue, and therefore negate the cash flow into the system. Ultimately what's keeping the storage providers honest, whether they're centralized or decentralized, is that their future profit stream is based on their current behavior, and they presumably care about future profits. Code and SLAs ain't nothing but words.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  In fairness, real-company SLAs also tend to be hand-wavy. People like to pretend it's "they'll never be down more than X" or "if they're ever down more than X they'll give us a refund", but it's usually more like "the service provider said that it didn't count because only one part of their service was 'degraded', and after we threatened to take them to court they threw us a $13 discount'".
- dntrkv 5y ago
  What if the system had 2 kinds of nodes, storage nodes, and then verification nodes. The storage nodes, store the data. The verification nodes, hit the storage nodes and verify the data is there and available. If the storage node fails a verification attempt, the storage node pays a fee. After a certain amount of failures, it is banned from the network. Disclaimer: I have no idea how these systems currently work.
  - wmf 5y ago
    This is basically how decentralized storage works except you can't really ban anyone so a storage provider will lose their deposit if they fail verification. As the article says, this forces storage providers to lock up capital and even that is no guarantee since there may be situations where losing the deposit is actually cheaper than staying in business.

cle 5y ago

S3 has no durability SLA, only an availability SLA. S3 also explicitly says it is not designed for 100% durability, but for a certian number of nines (99.999999999%).

karpierz 5y ago
Blockchain has neither a durability or availability SLA.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  An SLA just gives you the right to fee reductions or potential compensation for downtime. And not all SLAs are created equal. Meanwhile, for example, many blockchains such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, have 100% uptime. Not 99.99%...100%.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    "uptime" is such a weird concept when talking about decentralized networks as they are local-first and also build with many peers. And which "uptime" is being referred to here, read or write? If it's write, fees have definitely spiked at points to make it mostly useless for most people "using" it, but you can technically still write to it. And read is just always available as long as you have a copy of the data somewhere.
- cle 5y ago
  I'm not sure that comparison makes much sense, it's like saying that HTTP has no SLA. AFAIU, Filecoin miners are free to offer SLAs for storage, and clients are free to enter into deals only with miners who offer such SLAs.

ChainOfFools 5y ago

> dozens of independent entities or one entity operating dozens of nodes? droplets are cheap, pwned windows boxes even cheaper. they don't even have to be cheap by regular Joe standards, they could be cheap by nation state, or ransomware gang standards. the point is there's no way to prove they are decentralized. this is an intrinsic, structural property of the cryptocurrency model, thus it is not a mere technical defect that will get solved "in the future" proving decentralization would require zero privacy, because you'd have to prove independent nodes are indeed independent and not part of a cartel, which means you'd have to somehow prove who operates each one. nothing but faith-based decentralization here, as with all cryptocurrencies.

yosito 5y ago

In the case of Storj, I believe that the redundancy between storage nodes is sufficient that something like only 20 out of 80 nodes need to respond in order to restore your data.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dnr 5y ago

The argument (of the second post) is that their behavior will be correlated because they all have (more or less) the same incentives and cost structure.

px43 5y ago

> SLAs -- something that a blockchain can't really offer. Hold on there, SLAs are actually something that blockchains are great at. Smart contracts provide cryptographic guarantees of service. In several of these types of systems, node runners must put up collateral as "stake" in exchange for collecting fees for their services. If a participant in the network identifies a misbehaving node (violation of SLA) then their stake can get slashed, or burned completely. If a Filecoin node claims to be holding data for someone, but is unable to provide it in a timely manner when legitimately requested to do so, they're in for some serious penalties. The great thing is that the consumer doesn't need to worry about some big company hiring expensive lawyers to weasel out of their contractual obligations. The rules are all readily transparent and enshrined as code that anyone can read and verify the validity of before participating.

wmf 5y ago
I think this speaks to the difference between what SLAs really are and what people wishfully think they are. People think an uptime SLA means "we will not go down much" but it really means "one day we will go down hard and we'll give you a refund (which will be insignificantly small compared to the pain we caused you)".