6 ms·

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a s

by carlmr 6y ago

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like bus drivers) * accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special) * civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also work more, leading to a similar hourly rate. One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US: * Much higher job stability. * Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid overtime. * 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal. * You almost never get called into work on the weekend. * CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary buys you a decent life. * No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.

jamil7 6y ago
> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  > but that comes with it's own complications in Germany. like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.
  - distances 6y ago
    They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.
    - jamil7 6y ago
      Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people. There are also uncertainties around how long and how much you can work for a single client without causing issues for your client, although I usually don’t do contracts longer than 6mo. I think it still is far better than working salaried, at least for me.
      - distances 6y ago
        Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's see if that comes back to bite me at some point.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer. 25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.
- sdevonoes 6y ago
  While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria). Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.
    - sdevonoes 6y ago
      Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year. Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself, but in my experience is something you decide to do it or not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        >Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself Well that was my point. There's no EU law that prevents you from having to do overtime.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the same. What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009) is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung", which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their clients office and are second class employees. When the project ends they're moved on to the next company if they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on the client site but the place where they organize this type of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.
- catdog 6y ago
  Freelancers in Germany also have a problem which is called "Scheinselbstständigkeit". If you do too much work for only one client (there are no clear rules to follow) the public social security system might decide you are to be treated like an employee and your client suddenly has to pay pension insurance and health ensurance for the time you worked for them. Companies fear that because it's a huge chunk of money and to my knowledge this also contributed a lot to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" spreading so much into highly skilled positions.
  - rurban 6y ago
    Only if your company has a base in Germany. In my case I worked remote for a US-only company as Scheinselbstständiger, got the full US rates (ie 3x higher than german rates), and paid normal insurance. They had to pay nothing into the German SS system.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago

by carlmr 6y ago

jamil7 6y ago

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> but that comes with it's own complications in Germany. like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.
- distances 6y ago
  They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.
  - jamil7 6y ago
    Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people. There are also uncertainties around how long and how much you can work for a single client without causing issues for your client, although I usually don’t do contracts longer than 6mo. I think it still is far better than working salaried, at least for me.
    - distances 6y ago
      Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's see if that comes back to bite me at some point.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer. 25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.

sdevonoes 6y ago
While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria). Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.
  - sdevonoes 6y ago
    Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year. Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself, but in my experience is something you decide to do it or not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      >Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself Well that was my point. There's no EU law that prevents you from having to do overtime.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the same. What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009) is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung", which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their clients office and are second class employees. When the project ends they're moved on to the next company if they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on the client site but the place where they organize this type of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.

catdog 6y ago
Freelancers in Germany also have a problem which is called "Scheinselbstständigkeit". If you do too much work for only one client (there are no clear rules to follow) the public social security system might decide you are to be treated like an employee and your client suddenly has to pay pension insurance and health ensurance for the time you worked for them. Companies fear that because it's a huge chunk of money and to my knowledge this also contributed a lot to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" spreading so much into highly skilled positions.
- rurban 6y ago
  Only if your company has a base in Germany. In my case I worked remote for a US-only company as Scheinselbstständiger, got the full US rates (ie 3x higher than german rates), and paid normal insurance. They had to pay nothing into the German SS system.
- cosmodisk 6y ago