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Thought experiment: what if we were all aware during general anasthesia and felt all the pain and these cases differed only in that they retained a long term me

Thought experiment: what if we were all aware during general anasthesia and felt all the pain and these cases differed only in that they retained a long term memory of it? I know there are ways to measure pain, brain activity etc that most likely rule this out. But what if? Are experiences, even unpleasant ones, really experienced if they leave no trace at all, not even a memory?

edem 5y ago
My idea was that anasthesia switches off consciousness itself. It is like closing your eye when you look at the Sun while using painkillers is like wearing sunglasses.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  General anesthesia does have an analgesic effect. Many people who woke up during a surgery have reported not feeling any pain. My fear is that sedation, on the other hand, could lead to the patient suffering but not remembering (much of) it afterwards.
  - thret 5y ago
    Yes, this is my fear. After surgery it is not a problem, but in the weeks leading up to a surgery it's terrifying.
throwanem 5y ago
Potentially relevant research discussing, in part, whether drugs that disrupt memory formation and/or sympathetic nervous system activation can improve outcomes after traumatic events: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620711/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620711/
darkerside 5y ago
Yes? You think you keep your memories when you die?
- bloak 5y ago
  Interestingly, in Germany at least, when someone is killed in an accident, in determining the damages payable to the person's estate (i.e. other people) they take account of how much pain (it is speculated that) the person suffered in the seconds before they died. To me this seems ... weird. I don't think they're worried about psychological trauma in the afterlife, but who knows?
  - darkerside 5y ago
    I agree with it. Just because it ends doesn't mean it didn't happen.
    - bloak 5y ago
      I can't decide whether I agree or not. For an extra level of weirdness, imagine the person who caused the accident collecting the damages. It's not very improbable: you could be driving a car with your parents as passengers and you crash it, through honest incompetence, without committing a criminal offence, and they die, painfully, while you survive. Your insurance pays money into the estate for the pain your parents suffered, and you then collect that money, minus inheritance tax. By adding to your feelings of guilt, perhaps it's a fair punishment?
      - darkerside 5y ago
        You're feelings of guilt have nothing to do with externally imposed punishment. Everybody is going to react differently. Since will feel tremendous guilt and some won't. Even if they do, some will handle it well and some won't. It's not an effective way to mete out punishment. The world is senseless enough already. (I believe) the best we can do as humans is to try to make it a little more fair, which means connecting negative effects to negative causes. And when we do the opposite, we build systems that sow chaos. To that end, I have to say I'm actually philosophically offended by your suggestion.
      - darkerside 5y ago
        Separate note. Don't make the mistake of thinking meaning and life are binary. People too often think life is meaningful (everything is eternally meaningful) or completely meaningless. Allow that neither of those are true, and that all things carry some meaning for some amount of time.
stared 5y ago
Without going into too much spoilers, a horror video game Amnesia: The Dark Descent has some tropes around this topic.
andix 5y ago
This is known to be kind of true. At least some part of the body remembers the pain. And it can have some long lasting effects (chronic pain, or stress). That's why nowadays during many surgeries they try to suppress the pain as much as possible locally. So if you get surgery on your leg, it is best if you have additional anaesthesia or pain killers working in this particular leg. So you wouldn't feel all the pain even without general anaesthesia.

edem 5y ago

My idea was that anasthesia switches off consciousness itself. It is like closing your eye when you look at the Sun while using painkillers is like wearing sunglasses.

Koshkin 5y ago
General anesthesia does have an analgesic effect. Many people who woke up during a surgery have reported not feeling any pain. My fear is that sedation, on the other hand, could lead to the patient suffering but not remembering (much of) it afterwards.
- thret 5y ago
  Yes, this is my fear. After surgery it is not a problem, but in the weeks leading up to a surgery it's terrifying.

throwanem 5y ago

Potentially relevant research discussing, in part, whether drugs that disrupt memory formation and/or sympathetic nervous system activation can improve outcomes after traumatic events: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620711/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620711/

darkerside 5y ago

Yes? You think you keep your memories when you die?

bloak 5y ago
Interestingly, in Germany at least, when someone is killed in an accident, in determining the damages payable to the person's estate (i.e. other people) they take account of how much pain (it is speculated that) the person suffered in the seconds before they died. To me this seems ... weird. I don't think they're worried about psychological trauma in the afterlife, but who knows?
- darkerside 5y ago
  I agree with it. Just because it ends doesn't mean it didn't happen.
  - bloak 5y ago
    I can't decide whether I agree or not. For an extra level of weirdness, imagine the person who caused the accident collecting the damages. It's not very improbable: you could be driving a car with your parents as passengers and you crash it, through honest incompetence, without committing a criminal offence, and they die, painfully, while you survive. Your insurance pays money into the estate for the pain your parents suffered, and you then collect that money, minus inheritance tax. By adding to your feelings of guilt, perhaps it's a fair punishment?
    - darkerside 5y ago
      You're feelings of guilt have nothing to do with externally imposed punishment. Everybody is going to react differently. Since will feel tremendous guilt and some won't. Even if they do, some will handle it well and some won't. It's not an effective way to mete out punishment. The world is senseless enough already. (I believe) the best we can do as humans is to try to make it a little more fair, which means connecting negative effects to negative causes. And when we do the opposite, we build systems that sow chaos. To that end, I have to say I'm actually philosophically offended by your suggestion.
    - darkerside 5y ago
      Separate note. Don't make the mistake of thinking meaning and life are binary. People too often think life is meaningful (everything is eternally meaningful) or completely meaningless. Allow that neither of those are true, and that all things carry some meaning for some amount of time.

stared 5y ago

Without going into too much spoilers, a horror video game Amnesia: The Dark Descent has some tropes around this topic.

andix 5y ago

This is known to be kind of true. At least some part of the body remembers the pain. And it can have some long lasting effects (chronic pain, or stress). That's why nowadays during many surgeries they try to suppress the pain as much as possible locally. So if you get surgery on your leg, it is best if you have additional anaesthesia or pain killers working in this particular leg. So you wouldn't feel all the pain even without general anaesthesia.