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That speculation at the end is truly bizzare. I’m sure that, if I suffered such an experience, the first thing I’d do upon waking would be to talk about it!

tapland 6y ago
I remember the doctors asking me after partial removal of a brain tumour if I remembered them waking me up during the surgery. I wish I did, but I remember absolutely nothing. This was about 15 years ago, and I don't remember if they said they would wake me up prior to the surgery. Maybe to my parents.
- rz2k 6y ago
  Was that done to actively map your brain so that they could be especially careful around areas related to functions like speech?
throwanem 6y ago
Would you? It would probably be by far the worst agony you'd ever experienced, and given the circumstances you might also not be able to be certain you had actually experienced it. Beyond that, you'd likely face strong dissuasion if you did try to talk to anyone about it, even a doctor or nurse involved in your care, assuming the article is accurate in saying most don't really believe it can happen. It might be hard to argue with someone in a position of professional authority saying it was all just a bad dream, a pre-waking hallucination, or similar - nothing more than the anesthesia messing with your head a little, nothing you'd need to worry about. And you might well want very much to believe that was true, too. I don't know, and I don't feel competent even to really guess. I have a degree of physical ability to tolerate pain that has drawn surprised comment from doctors and dentists in the past; between that and the mental and emotional toolkit I've had to develop in consequence of various painful illnesses for which I wasn't immediately able to obtain care, I might, very possibly, if the procedure was short and God was kind, be able to withstand something like this without being entirely crippled by trauma, maybe. Even then I don't know that I'd tell the surgeon; it would be a difficult and uncomfortable conversation to have at a time when I'd no doubt already be feeling unusually fragile. And that's me - for someone totally naïve to severe pain, and lacking any of the advantages I have in dealing with it? It's horrifying just to think about.
- ctdonath 6y ago
  As said: speculation. A study would have found a meaningful number expressing hesitation to discuss but doing so anyway, plus those who won’t but clearly experienced trauma - pointing to a percentage actually quiet about the incident.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Of course it's speculation; as far as I know nobody's done much research of any kind into this phenomenon. Making it more widely known seems like a good way to improve the odds of someone doing such research, so in that sense the article is worthwhile, whether speculative or otherwise. And, again, how could it not be? The subject matter practically compels such consideration.
- andrewl 6y ago
  It's not uncommon to wake people up during brain surgery, or do the surgery without fully anesthetizing the patient at all. They would anesthetize the skull area they cut through. And the brain tissue itself doesn't register pain when cut. They do it so the surgeons can interact with the patient to guide them in what areas they have to stay away from when removing a tumor or doing other work. Here's more: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/awake-brain-surgery/about/pac-20384913 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/awake-brain-surg...
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Sure, I'm aware, and I don't know of any reports of emotional harm as a result of that. I think it'd probably be the combination of pain, helplessness, surprise, and recollection that'd be what causes the trauma in cases where people regain consciousness unintentionally. In the kind of surgery you describe, at most two of those seem likely ever to be present, and because the awareness is intentional I expect there'd be more and/or different pharmacological support to help insulate the patient from the full reality of the situation. So I don't think awake brain surgery is likely all that usefully comparable to the accidental awareness we're discussing here.
refurb 6y ago
Most surgeons, at least males ones, will have another nurse present during recovery as some pretty weird memories can form. I remember reading about a case where an older female patient wouldn’t talk to the surgeon after. Finally she admitted she was upset as “the surgeon has put his penis in her hand”. Luckily he had a nurse present the entire time and what he had done is place two fingers in her palm and told her to squeeze. Yet this patient was 100% convinced he had been inappropriate with her.

tapland 6y ago

I remember the doctors asking me after partial removal of a brain tumour if I remembered them waking me up during the surgery. I wish I did, but I remember absolutely nothing. This was about 15 years ago, and I don't remember if they said they would wake me up prior to the surgery. Maybe to my parents.

rz2k 6y ago
Was that done to actively map your brain so that they could be especially careful around areas related to functions like speech?

throwanem 6y ago

Would you? It would probably be by far the worst agony you'd ever experienced, and given the circumstances you might also not be able to be certain you had actually experienced it. Beyond that, you'd likely face strong dissuasion if you did try to talk to anyone about it, even a doctor or nurse involved in your care, assuming the article is accurate in saying most don't really believe it can happen. It might be hard to argue with someone in a position of professional authority saying it was all just a bad dream, a pre-waking hallucination, or similar - nothing more than the anesthesia messing with your head a little, nothing you'd need to worry about. And you might well want very much to believe that was true, too. I don't know, and I don't feel competent even to really guess. I have a degree of physical ability to tolerate pain that has drawn surprised comment from doctors and dentists in the past; between that and the mental and emotional toolkit I've had to develop in consequence of various painful illnesses for which I wasn't immediately able to obtain care, I might, very possibly, if the procedure was short and God was kind, be able to withstand something like this without being entirely crippled by trauma, maybe. Even then I don't know that I'd tell the surgeon; it would be a difficult and uncomfortable conversation to have at a time when I'd no doubt already be feeling unusually fragile. And that's me - for someone totally naïve to severe pain, and lacking any of the advantages I have in dealing with it? It's horrifying just to think about.

ctdonath 6y ago
As said: speculation. A study would have found a meaningful number expressing hesitation to discuss but doing so anyway, plus those who won’t but clearly experienced trauma - pointing to a percentage actually quiet about the incident.
- throwanem 6y ago
  Of course it's speculation; as far as I know nobody's done much research of any kind into this phenomenon. Making it more widely known seems like a good way to improve the odds of someone doing such research, so in that sense the article is worthwhile, whether speculative or otherwise. And, again, how could it not be? The subject matter practically compels such consideration.
andrewl 6y ago
It's not uncommon to wake people up during brain surgery, or do the surgery without fully anesthetizing the patient at all. They would anesthetize the skull area they cut through. And the brain tissue itself doesn't register pain when cut. They do it so the surgeons can interact with the patient to guide them in what areas they have to stay away from when removing a tumor or doing other work. Here's more: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/awake-brain-surgery/about/pac-20384913 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/awake-brain-surg...
- throwanem 6y ago
  Sure, I'm aware, and I don't know of any reports of emotional harm as a result of that. I think it'd probably be the combination of pain, helplessness, surprise, and recollection that'd be what causes the trauma in cases where people regain consciousness unintentionally. In the kind of surgery you describe, at most two of those seem likely ever to be present, and because the awareness is intentional I expect there'd be more and/or different pharmacological support to help insulate the patient from the full reality of the situation. So I don't think awake brain surgery is likely all that usefully comparable to the accidental awareness we're discussing here.

refurb 6y ago

Most surgeons, at least males ones, will have another nurse present during recovery as some pretty weird memories can form. I remember reading about a case where an older female patient wouldn’t talk to the surgeon after. Finally she admitted she was upset as “the surgeon has put his penis in her hand”. Luckily he had a nurse present the entire time and what he had done is place two fingers in her palm and told her to squeeze. Yet this patient was 100% convinced he had been inappropriate with her.