7 ms·

When you've seen exam-sitting-for-hire in action, you believe it. Most students are honest and genuinely want to learn, and the few that are dishonest cause ev

by mkl 6y ago

When you've seen exam-sitting-for-hire in action, you believe it. Most students are honest and genuinely want to learn, and the few that are dishonest cause everyone to be subjected to this. It sucks for everyone, students and staff.

necovek 6y ago
Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams. Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never felt like I've got a lesser grade because of them. Does that happen in cases where you've seen "exam-sitting-for-hire" in action? Even if you normalize your grading scale based on the students taking the exam right then, if your claim that "most students are honest" is true (and I believe it is), that should not affect any non-cheater significantly (unless you've got a small, non-representative group, but then normalizing grades is unfair to begin with). So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their way through life too?
- jasonjayr 6y ago
  While I despise software like this and how high-stakes and petty it can be, keep in mind that it's in the institution's interests to not only provide a quality education, but to defend the value of their brand. You might have worked very hard for a diploma from University X, but if it was found that University X was handing out diplomas like candy to other students that were not as academically rigorous, it weakens the value of your diploma.
  - Angostura 6y ago
    It's not even the value of their brand - it's the value of all students' diplomas
    - hhjinks 6y ago
      Universities don't give a shit about that. And they shouldn't. A lot of diplomas are worthless, but that doesn't make the education worthless.
  - christophilus 6y ago
    Requiring distopian spyware doesn’t weaken your brand. It destroys it. For most of history, reputable universities built their brand just fine without any software at all.
    - devenblake 6y ago
      Totally agree. I personally chose not to go to college (I'm graduating HS this year) because of things like Proctorio and Zoom becoming more common.
      - distances 6y ago
        Honestly, it's fine to not choose higher education but IMHO use of surveillance methods should affect where you apply, not whether you apply.
        wheelinsupial 6y ago
        It’s possible that some institutions are dictating blanket use of software, but where I am studying that’s not the case. It’s basically up to the instructor on how to run the class. Some require proctorio, some are on Zoom with lots of TAs to watch the screen, some issue an exam on your own time where the browser monitors what you do / visit, and others just offer take home projects.
        dnautics 6y ago
        No but it's very reasonable to wait a year before applying so that you don't pay out the nose for zoom classes (there are things like socialization and connections that make a super expensive college worth it)
    - granshaw 6y ago
      Unless every other university also implements it, then it’s just par for the course
    - michaelt 6y ago
      For most of history, in-person exams were possible.
  - evrydayhustling 6y ago
    Yes. This is a problem for universities to solve, with the money they get from constantly expanding tuitions. This is one of many places in which a problem is cheap to "solve" if you are ok being racist/ablist/generally not adapting the variations in your customer base. Handing over the solution for the problem to a software company shouldn't be an accountability shield for the Universities. Impacted students should sue the universities, and then they should sue the software company.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dariosalvi78 6y ago
    The role of universities is to provide education not to police students. People put in place reasonable means to detect cheating (proctorio isn't) and then it's students responsibility to learn. They're adults and should value what they get. If they don't, they're missing an opportunity.
  - necovek 6y ago
    Ideally though, I've worked very hard to get certain knowledge. Diploma is a nice side-effect that's supposed to be a shorthand proof of it, but most companies in eg. software engineering would test candidates anyway, which is where knowledge helps, a degree, not so much.
- mkl 6y ago
  When your institution's reputation is at risk, you want to prevent it. Honest students don't get a lesser grade; that's not the problem. If the cheaters want to cheat their way through life, that's their problem. My problem is to make sure the rest of my students end up with a well-respected degree. I.e. the problem is being solved for the honest students, the ones I want to spend my time on.
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    In many courses, the grades are curved, so cheaters might really make the grades of honest students worse. While I am against these surveillance software, making sure that tests are fair is very hard, especially since everything is online now thanks to COVID.
    - mkl 6y ago
      Not in my experience. I don't think there are enough cheaters to shift the curve (the noise from year to year is much more significant), and despite what you'd expect, the people hired to do others' assessments aren't necessarily very good at it!
      - derivagral 6y ago
        A top 10 MBA program my partner went through had several people cheating in the program. I'll give you some anecdotal notes. Some cheaters get discovered and "outed" (esp those the group didn't like) when they brag during parties, some never gave up enough evidence to make an accusation official, others would talk about hiring CPAs for accounting exams/projects. Many in the class were concerned on whether normal study groups counted as cheating, as defined by the honor code! A sibling program at the university exposed a cheating ring of ~15-20 people, and I think many were surprised that the result was to simply zero their grades for that class instead of more severe action. /e I mention incidents and sizes since these programs are not thousands of students but tens or hundreds.
        necovek 6y ago
- mannykannot 6y ago
  Realistically, if all existing diplomas were invalidated and the entire system of diploma-granting were to be stripped away from educational institutions, an equivalent would quickly be re-established by the free market - and it would probably resemble Proctorio. > So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their way through life too? For one thing, all the harm that incompetent professionals can cause - and in a moddern society, the scope of that is not inconsiderable - in fact, Proctorio is probably an example. Let's not lose focus on the real problem here, which is Proctorio being an aggressive vendor of garbage.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Is there a correlation between having a degree and competence? Because my experience is that there very much isn't. I would go so far as to say that the information age has made educational material so widely and easily available that the only value universities provide is signaling and wealth/class filtering.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Could engineers that cheated their way through college have developed microprocessors? Built bridges and skyscrapers? Achieved space travel? Perhaps there is value in knowing someone has been able to work in a team setting and complete given tasks.
      - necovek 6y ago
        They certainly could. For instance, many of the still surviving bridges in Europe were built way before university degrees in architecture. I'll consider them cheaters because they didn't even attend a University! ;) But there is another way to look at it: can all non-cheating students build bridges, design microprocessors or design rockets? I can give you an affirmative no.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    > if all existing diplomas were invalidated and the entire system of diploma-granting were to be stripped away from educational institutions, an equivalent would quickly be re-established by the free market - and it would probably resemble Proctorio. coming soon to a tech interview near you.
- revicon 6y ago
  Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. Employers definitely use grades as a mechanism to determine who gets an internship or a full time position upon graduation, especially in the legal industry. The idea that cheaters aren't a big deal breaks down once grades have real world consequences.
  - necovek 6y ago
    I've never once been asked about my grades, nor asked to provide proof of my graduation in getting a software engineering job. Then again, I have a hard time envisioning what would someone cheat about in a legal exam, other than not memorizing the things, but that's to me just a signal that the content is badly presented (instead, put students in a pretend courtroom in a case that covers the study material, and they'll have to learn it, and learn to apply it). But even if we accept it as so, it is not an argument to be so vigilant in catching cheaters majoring in other subjects.
warlog 6y ago
It doesn't seem to suck for higher admin types...they treat the student like a customer and therefore never expel them for cheating. System is broken because of incentives (of course).
xoudini 6y ago
I'm not familiar with the software in question, but I'm quite sure it'd still be possible to have someone else to sit your exam. For instance, you could have an external webcam pointed at yourself, and have someone else in front of your computer writing the actual exam. Maybe even mirror the display so that you can see what your accomplice is doing.
- splix 6y ago
  I had experience having an exam with the proctorio. And I see many ways how it can be cheated, at least technically. They also say they monitor your head and eyes movements, which is supposed to show something unnatural if you're cheating. Though I'm not sure it's really possible, and maybe just a security theater.
lstepnio 6y ago
I think you would be surprised on the high percentage of students that will cheat, given the opportunity with as low risk profile such as remote learning.
- m-ee 6y ago
  My university had an honor system, proctors were explicitly not allowed in the room during the test except to make announcements. Worked well enough as far as I know. Cheating was dealt with harshly when reported.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
Most people don't smuggle drugs in their rectums, but the few that do cause everyone to be subjected to random rectal cavity searches?

by mkl 6y ago

necovek 6y ago

Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams. Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never felt like I've got a lesser grade because of them. Does that happen in cases where you've seen "exam-sitting-for-hire" in action? Even if you normalize your grading scale based on the students taking the exam right then, if your claim that "most students are honest" is true (and I believe it is), that should not affect any non-cheater significantly (unless you've got a small, non-representative group, but then normalizing grades is unfair to begin with). So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their way through life too?

jasonjayr 6y ago
While I despise software like this and how high-stakes and petty it can be, keep in mind that it's in the institution's interests to not only provide a quality education, but to defend the value of their brand. You might have worked very hard for a diploma from University X, but if it was found that University X was handing out diplomas like candy to other students that were not as academically rigorous, it weakens the value of your diploma.
- Angostura 6y ago
  It's not even the value of their brand - it's the value of all students' diplomas
  - hhjinks 6y ago
    Universities don't give a shit about that. And they shouldn't. A lot of diplomas are worthless, but that doesn't make the education worthless.
- christophilus 6y ago
  Requiring distopian spyware doesn’t weaken your brand. It destroys it. For most of history, reputable universities built their brand just fine without any software at all.
  - devenblake 6y ago
    Totally agree. I personally chose not to go to college (I'm graduating HS this year) because of things like Proctorio and Zoom becoming more common.
    - distances 6y ago
      Honestly, it's fine to not choose higher education but IMHO use of surveillance methods should affect where you apply, not whether you apply.
      - wheelinsupial 6y ago
        It’s possible that some institutions are dictating blanket use of software, but where I am studying that’s not the case. It’s basically up to the instructor on how to run the class. Some require proctorio, some are on Zoom with lots of TAs to watch the screen, some issue an exam on your own time where the browser monitors what you do / visit, and others just offer take home projects.
      - dnautics 6y ago
        No but it's very reasonable to wait a year before applying so that you don't pay out the nose for zoom classes (there are things like socialization and connections that make a super expensive college worth it)
  - granshaw 6y ago
    Unless every other university also implements it, then it’s just par for the course
  - michaelt 6y ago
    For most of history, in-person exams were possible.
- evrydayhustling 6y ago
  Yes. This is a problem for universities to solve, with the money they get from constantly expanding tuitions. This is one of many places in which a problem is cheap to "solve" if you are ok being racist/ablist/generally not adapting the variations in your customer base. Handing over the solution for the problem to a software company shouldn't be an accountability shield for the Universities. Impacted students should sue the universities, and then they should sue the software company.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dariosalvi78 6y ago
  The role of universities is to provide education not to police students. People put in place reasonable means to detect cheating (proctorio isn't) and then it's students responsibility to learn. They're adults and should value what they get. If they don't, they're missing an opportunity.
- necovek 6y ago
  Ideally though, I've worked very hard to get certain knowledge. Diploma is a nice side-effect that's supposed to be a shorthand proof of it, but most companies in eg. software engineering would test candidates anyway, which is where knowledge helps, a degree, not so much.
mkl 6y ago
When your institution's reputation is at risk, you want to prevent it. Honest students don't get a lesser grade; that's not the problem. If the cheaters want to cheat their way through life, that's their problem. My problem is to make sure the rest of my students end up with a well-respected degree. I.e. the problem is being solved for the honest students, the ones I want to spend my time on.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  In many courses, the grades are curved, so cheaters might really make the grades of honest students worse. While I am against these surveillance software, making sure that tests are fair is very hard, especially since everything is online now thanks to COVID.
  - mkl 6y ago
    Not in my experience. I don't think there are enough cheaters to shift the curve (the noise from year to year is much more significant), and despite what you'd expect, the people hired to do others' assessments aren't necessarily very good at it!
    - derivagral 6y ago
      A top 10 MBA program my partner went through had several people cheating in the program. I'll give you some anecdotal notes. Some cheaters get discovered and "outed" (esp those the group didn't like) when they brag during parties, some never gave up enough evidence to make an accusation official, others would talk about hiring CPAs for accounting exams/projects. Many in the class were concerned on whether normal study groups counted as cheating, as defined by the honor code! A sibling program at the university exposed a cheating ring of ~15-20 people, and I think many were surprised that the result was to simply zero their grades for that class instead of more severe action. /e I mention incidents and sizes since these programs are not thousands of students but tens or hundreds.
      - necovek 6y ago
mannykannot 6y ago
Realistically, if all existing diplomas were invalidated and the entire system of diploma-granting were to be stripped away from educational institutions, an equivalent would quickly be re-established by the free market - and it would probably resemble Proctorio. > So my question is: who are we trying to solve the problem for? What is the expected outcome, knowing that there will always be people who "cheat" their way through life too? For one thing, all the harm that incompetent professionals can cause - and in a moddern society, the scope of that is not inconsiderable - in fact, Proctorio is probably an example. Let's not lose focus on the real problem here, which is Proctorio being an aggressive vendor of garbage.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Is there a correlation between having a degree and competence? Because my experience is that there very much isn't. I would go so far as to say that the information age has made educational material so widely and easily available that the only value universities provide is signaling and wealth/class filtering.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Could engineers that cheated their way through college have developed microprocessors? Built bridges and skyscrapers? Achieved space travel? Perhaps there is value in knowing someone has been able to work in a team setting and complete given tasks.
    - necovek 6y ago
      They certainly could. For instance, many of the still surviving bridges in Europe were built way before university degrees in architecture. I'll consider them cheaters because they didn't even attend a University! ;) But there is another way to look at it: can all non-cheating students build bridges, design microprocessors or design rockets? I can give you an affirmative no.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  > if all existing diplomas were invalidated and the entire system of diploma-granting were to be stripped away from educational institutions, an equivalent would quickly be re-established by the free market - and it would probably resemble Proctorio. coming soon to a tech interview near you.
revicon 6y ago
Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. Employers definitely use grades as a mechanism to determine who gets an internship or a full time position upon graduation, especially in the legal industry. The idea that cheaters aren't a big deal breaks down once grades have real world consequences.
- necovek 6y ago
  I've never once been asked about my grades, nor asked to provide proof of my graduation in getting a software engineering job. Then again, I have a hard time envisioning what would someone cheat about in a legal exam, other than not memorizing the things, but that's to me just a signal that the content is badly presented (instead, put students in a pretend courtroom in a case that covers the study material, and they'll have to learn it, and learn to apply it). But even if we accept it as so, it is not an argument to be so vigilant in catching cheaters majoring in other subjects.

warlog 6y ago

It doesn't seem to suck for higher admin types...they treat the student like a customer and therefore never expel them for cheating. System is broken because of incentives (of course).

xoudini 6y ago

I'm not familiar with the software in question, but I'm quite sure it'd still be possible to have someone else to sit your exam. For instance, you could have an external webcam pointed at yourself, and have someone else in front of your computer writing the actual exam. Maybe even mirror the display so that you can see what your accomplice is doing.

splix 6y ago
I had experience having an exam with the proctorio. And I see many ways how it can be cheated, at least technically. They also say they monitor your head and eyes movements, which is supposed to show something unnatural if you're cheating. Though I'm not sure it's really possible, and maybe just a security theater.

lstepnio 6y ago

I think you would be surprised on the high percentage of students that will cheat, given the opportunity with as low risk profile such as remote learning.

m-ee 6y ago
My university had an honor system, proctors were explicitly not allowed in the room during the test except to make announcements. Worked well enough as far as I know. Cheating was dealt with harshly when reported.

Turing_Machine 6y ago

Most people don't smuggle drugs in their rectums, but the few that do cause everyone to be subjected to random rectal cavity searches?