5 ms·

As an italian, i'm a bit amazed that BBC wrote an article about this, and also that someone posted here on HN. As someone already pointed out, reminds me of th

by andoli 5y ago

As an italian, i'm a bit amazed that BBC wrote an article about this, and also that someone posted here on HN. As someone already pointed out, reminds me of the forgotten employee tale, except this guy is probably mafia.

camillomiller 5y ago
Came to say this. A random employee threat to a manager isn’t normally swept under the carpet. A threat from someone from a ‘ndrangheta background (the Calabrian mafia) on the other hand... This would explain also why a lot of the other managers involved were happy to forget about him for so long.
- Udik 5y ago
  > A random employee threat to a manager isn’t normally swept under the carpet Do you think that managers in Calabria actually check if the threat came from an actual 'ndrangheta affiliate or not? I think it's simply a matter of "looking dangerous" and the idea (probably correct) that reporting to the police is much more risky than just doing nothing. Anyone who has little to lose can behave in the same threatening way where there is no repercussion to be feared.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Lying about being in the mafia can have grave consequences, obviously. Especially if there is a big media storm about it and you happen to live in the vicinity. I think it's pretty normal to give them "benefit of doubt" if they claim to be in any mafia, and stay clear of them, no matter if you think they actually are in the mafia or not.
    - Udik 5y ago
      > Lying about being in the mafia can have grave consequences, obviously What do you mean? I hope you don’t seriously think that there is a mafia entity that is going around chasing people who casually claim to be part of it. Except for the higher-ups, the mafia is just a loose social network of people who don't mind using intimidation for personal gain. You don't even need (or want) to claim you're part of it, just act as if you're dangerous. The only risk you have (apart from that of the proper authorities) is that of trying to intimidate someone who is even better connected in that social network than you are.
      - jrochkind1 5y ago
        You are speaking specifically of the Italian mafia in the region the news report is from, you have familiarity of it?
      - TomSwirly 5y ago
        > I hope you don’t seriously think that there is a mafia entity that is going around chasing people who casually claim to be part of it. Absolutely, that is the case. > Except for the higher-ups, the mafia is just a loose social network of people who don't mind using intimidation for personal gain. You are not right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta - tightly organized, hierarchical organization that controls about 3% of Italy's GDP and ruthlessly enforces its dominion with brutal turf wars.
        Udik 5y ago
        Look, this is from an analysis document presented at the Italian parliament: "The criminal density of Calabria [region where the 'ndrangheta comes from], when comparing the numbers of official affiliates to the population, is of 27%. [...] The percentage is worrisome not only because more than 1/4 of the population is involved, in different ways, in criminal activities; but also because around these groups always gravitate thousands of "white collar workers", many of whom beyond suspicion." [1] So 27% of the population is involved directly, even more are involved in a supporting/ collateral role. Do you really think that they all know who is who and that they're all enrolled in a precise hierarchical structure? Do you think that in this kind of environment to threaten someone you need a certificate? You might not be part of one of the families (because the 'ndrangheta is mostly families), but you might be good friend of someone who is, you might have done some job for them and know them casually. With those percentages, almost everyone who is local can probably claim to have some connection with someone who you'd not want to anger. I remember this funny little anecdote by some anti-mafia investigator in Italy (though he was concerned with Camorra, the Neapolitan version of it): "When some prominent local mafiosi arrive in Naples with the ferry boat, before disembarking they remove their golden Rolex watches from their wrists, because they know that otherwise they'll be robbed". This is the climate. [1] https://www.parlamento.it/parlam/bicam/14/Antimafia/documenti/relazann2003II.pdf https://www.parlamento.it/parlam/bicam/14/Antimafia/document.... (page 4)
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Everyone in these comments is naively assuming the guy threatened to actually harm someone and it's absolutely infuriating. Has nobody here ever seen the kind of deviance that goes on in a large administrative organization or bureaucracy before?! It's almost certainly a not a "imma bust a cap in yo ass" threat and more along the lines of a "people higher than you and me in the org chart tacitly condone this behavior and your career is gonna be a dead end if you narc on me" type of threat.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Stop talking of things you don’t know about. From a more detailed source [0]: > la procura della Repubblica di Catanzaro scrive nell’inchiesta che una persona molto distinta si presentò nell’ufficio della dipendente minacciandola in modo velato, e facendole capire che la sua incolumità e quella della sua famiglia erano a rischio “The public prosecutor in Catanzaro writes in the filing that a well-dressed person walked into [the witness’s] office and made veiled threats, suggesting her health and the one of her relatives were at risk.” Well-dressed man speaking softly of physical violence - clearly the guy wanted to appear connected to the local ‘ndrangheta ras. [0] https://it.sputniknews.com/italia/2021042010438566-15-anni-di-assenteismo-e-stipendio-gratis-per-dipendente-pubblico-incassati-538-mila-euro/ https://it.sputniknews.com/italia/2021042010438566-15-anni-d...
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Thank you for the additional context but there was no way I could have known that since I can't read itialian. Everyone knows threats of "bad things will happen to your career if you do this" outnumber "bad things will physically happen to you" at least 1000:1. I challenge you (or anyone) to come up with a reason why my assumption was unreasonable using only the information provided by the BBC article submitted.
      - telchar 5y ago
        You should maybe take this as a lesson to not try to speak authoritatively about things you are ignorant about. If you don't know, offer speculation sure but statements like 'almost certainly' and arguing all up and down the thread from a position of ignorance rightly earn you downvotes.
Mauricebranagh 5y ago
When I read the bit about threats that was my thoughts "play nice or uncle tony will pay you a visit"
roel_v 5y ago
It's all over all sorts of EU media, I think in no small part fueled by 'remind me why we're giving Italy 222 BILLION euros in Covid recovery money when they spend it like this?' thinking. Which on the one hand is fair enough; on the other, articles like this coming out shows that you're trying to improve things. The general idea in the rest of Europe is that this sort of thing is rampant in the South, I don't know to what extent that is correct. Anecdotes online suggest that it's not a completely isolated incident, at the least.
- mxxc 5y ago
  not sure if you're italian but to add insult to injury italians themselves complain about EU fund usage in the south :) it is true however that between arrest and initial prosecution the justice system in italy is very trigger happy (whether people stay in jail is a different story) and it makes a good story for the press. there are examples elsewhere where law enforcement is a lot more magnanimous. not defending this case at all but in general this might partially explain why italy is more on the spotlight than other places.
- andoli 5y ago
  Ah! Thanks for pointing this out, i didn't know the news was under such attention on EU media. Corruption and criminal infiltration is indeed very common expecially in southern regions. the worries of mafia getting hands on those money are very real unfortunately...
  - toyg 5y ago
    I thought the last decades had shown that “especially” is not really true anymore. In the South it’s just more officially acknowledged, but these problems are similarly present in the North.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Different countries have different ways of wasting money, but glass houses. In the USA, wasted money mostly goes to execs and shareholders rather than workers, but I doubt the scale is less. From today's news... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/emergent-johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/emergent-john... > Federal Inspectors Fear More Vaccines Were Exposed to Contamination > Last month, up to 15 million doses of Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine had to be discarded at Emergent’s factory in Baltimore. A new report says problems were not fully investigated and other doses may be compromised. > …Though the government gave Emergent a $163 million contract in 2012 to ready the Baltimore plant for mass production in a pandemic, the site remained largely untested, and the company did not meet a requirement for demonstrating its rapid-response capabilities… Nonetheless, the government went on to award Emergent a $628 million contract last June… >… In another finding, the F.D.A. regulators wrote that the Bayview building “is not maintained in a clean and sanitary condition.” Nor is it “of suitable size, design and location to facilitate cleaning, maintenance and proper operations,” they said. > …Throughout 2020, its founder and chairman, Fuad El-Hibri, cashed in shares and options worth over $42 million, and the company’s chief executive, Robert Kramer, was recently awarded a $1.2 million cash bonus.

by andoli 5y ago

camillomiller 5y ago

Came to say this. A random employee threat to a manager isn’t normally swept under the carpet. A threat from someone from a ‘ndrangheta background (the Calabrian mafia) on the other hand... This would explain also why a lot of the other managers involved were happy to forget about him for so long.

Udik 5y ago
> A random employee threat to a manager isn’t normally swept under the carpet Do you think that managers in Calabria actually check if the threat came from an actual 'ndrangheta affiliate or not? I think it's simply a matter of "looking dangerous" and the idea (probably correct) that reporting to the police is much more risky than just doing nothing. Anyone who has little to lose can behave in the same threatening way where there is no repercussion to be feared.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Lying about being in the mafia can have grave consequences, obviously. Especially if there is a big media storm about it and you happen to live in the vicinity. I think it's pretty normal to give them "benefit of doubt" if they claim to be in any mafia, and stay clear of them, no matter if you think they actually are in the mafia or not.
  - Udik 5y ago
    > Lying about being in the mafia can have grave consequences, obviously What do you mean? I hope you don’t seriously think that there is a mafia entity that is going around chasing people who casually claim to be part of it. Except for the higher-ups, the mafia is just a loose social network of people who don't mind using intimidation for personal gain. You don't even need (or want) to claim you're part of it, just act as if you're dangerous. The only risk you have (apart from that of the proper authorities) is that of trying to intimidate someone who is even better connected in that social network than you are.
    - jrochkind1 5y ago
      You are speaking specifically of the Italian mafia in the region the news report is from, you have familiarity of it?
    - TomSwirly 5y ago
      > I hope you don’t seriously think that there is a mafia entity that is going around chasing people who casually claim to be part of it. Absolutely, that is the case. > Except for the higher-ups, the mafia is just a loose social network of people who don't mind using intimidation for personal gain. You are not right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta - tightly organized, hierarchical organization that controls about 3% of Italy's GDP and ruthlessly enforces its dominion with brutal turf wars.
      - Udik 5y ago
        Look, this is from an analysis document presented at the Italian parliament: "The criminal density of Calabria [region where the 'ndrangheta comes from], when comparing the numbers of official affiliates to the population, is of 27%. [...] The percentage is worrisome not only because more than 1/4 of the population is involved, in different ways, in criminal activities; but also because around these groups always gravitate thousands of "white collar workers", many of whom beyond suspicion." [1] So 27% of the population is involved directly, even more are involved in a supporting/ collateral role. Do you really think that they all know who is who and that they're all enrolled in a precise hierarchical structure? Do you think that in this kind of environment to threaten someone you need a certificate? You might not be part of one of the families (because the 'ndrangheta is mostly families), but you might be good friend of someone who is, you might have done some job for them and know them casually. With those percentages, almost everyone who is local can probably claim to have some connection with someone who you'd not want to anger. I remember this funny little anecdote by some anti-mafia investigator in Italy (though he was concerned with Camorra, the Neapolitan version of it): "When some prominent local mafiosi arrive in Naples with the ferry boat, before disembarking they remove their golden Rolex watches from their wrists, because they know that otherwise they'll be robbed". This is the climate. [1] https://www.parlamento.it/parlam/bicam/14/Antimafia/documenti/relazann2003II.pdf https://www.parlamento.it/parlam/bicam/14/Antimafia/document.... (page 4)
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Everyone in these comments is naively assuming the guy threatened to actually harm someone and it's absolutely infuriating. Has nobody here ever seen the kind of deviance that goes on in a large administrative organization or bureaucracy before?! It's almost certainly a not a "imma bust a cap in yo ass" threat and more along the lines of a "people higher than you and me in the org chart tacitly condone this behavior and your career is gonna be a dead end if you narc on me" type of threat.
- toyg 5y ago
  Stop talking of things you don’t know about. From a more detailed source [0]: > la procura della Repubblica di Catanzaro scrive nell’inchiesta che una persona molto distinta si presentò nell’ufficio della dipendente minacciandola in modo velato, e facendole capire che la sua incolumità e quella della sua famiglia erano a rischio “The public prosecutor in Catanzaro writes in the filing that a well-dressed person walked into [the witness’s] office and made veiled threats, suggesting her health and the one of her relatives were at risk.” Well-dressed man speaking softly of physical violence - clearly the guy wanted to appear connected to the local ‘ndrangheta ras. [0] https://it.sputniknews.com/italia/2021042010438566-15-anni-di-assenteismo-e-stipendio-gratis-per-dipendente-pubblico-incassati-538-mila-euro/ https://it.sputniknews.com/italia/2021042010438566-15-anni-d...
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Thank you for the additional context but there was no way I could have known that since I can't read itialian. Everyone knows threats of "bad things will happen to your career if you do this" outnumber "bad things will physically happen to you" at least 1000:1. I challenge you (or anyone) to come up with a reason why my assumption was unreasonable using only the information provided by the BBC article submitted.
    - telchar 5y ago
      You should maybe take this as a lesson to not try to speak authoritatively about things you are ignorant about. If you don't know, offer speculation sure but statements like 'almost certainly' and arguing all up and down the thread from a position of ignorance rightly earn you downvotes.

Mauricebranagh 5y ago

When I read the bit about threats that was my thoughts "play nice or uncle tony will pay you a visit"

roel_v 5y ago

It's all over all sorts of EU media, I think in no small part fueled by 'remind me why we're giving Italy 222 BILLION euros in Covid recovery money when they spend it like this?' thinking. Which on the one hand is fair enough; on the other, articles like this coming out shows that you're trying to improve things. The general idea in the rest of Europe is that this sort of thing is rampant in the South, I don't know to what extent that is correct. Anecdotes online suggest that it's not a completely isolated incident, at the least.

mxxc 5y ago
not sure if you're italian but to add insult to injury italians themselves complain about EU fund usage in the south :) it is true however that between arrest and initial prosecution the justice system in italy is very trigger happy (whether people stay in jail is a different story) and it makes a good story for the press. there are examples elsewhere where law enforcement is a lot more magnanimous. not defending this case at all but in general this might partially explain why italy is more on the spotlight than other places.
andoli 5y ago
Ah! Thanks for pointing this out, i didn't know the news was under such attention on EU media. Corruption and criminal infiltration is indeed very common expecially in southern regions. the worries of mafia getting hands on those money are very real unfortunately...
- toyg 5y ago
  I thought the last decades had shown that “especially” is not really true anymore. In the South it’s just more officially acknowledged, but these problems are similarly present in the North.
jrochkind1 5y ago
Different countries have different ways of wasting money, but glass houses. In the USA, wasted money mostly goes to execs and shareholders rather than workers, but I doubt the scale is less. From today's news... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/emergent-johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/emergent-john... > Federal Inspectors Fear More Vaccines Were Exposed to Contamination > Last month, up to 15 million doses of Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine had to be discarded at Emergent’s factory in Baltimore. A new report says problems were not fully investigated and other doses may be compromised. > …Though the government gave Emergent a $163 million contract in 2012 to ready the Baltimore plant for mass production in a pandemic, the site remained largely untested, and the company did not meet a requirement for demonstrating its rapid-response capabilities… Nonetheless, the government went on to award Emergent a $628 million contract last June… >… In another finding, the F.D.A. regulators wrote that the Bayview building “is not maintained in a clean and sanitary condition.” Nor is it “of suitable size, design and location to facilitate cleaning, maintenance and proper operations,” they said. > …Throughout 2020, its founder and chairman, Fuad El-Hibri, cashed in shares and options worth over $42 million, and the company’s chief executive, Robert Kramer, was recently awarded a $1.2 million cash bonus.