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I feel like beating a dead horse, but there's tons of L2 technologies at this point, lightning payment channels or rollups on eth, etc. The blockchain itself is

I feel like beating a dead horse, but there's tons of L2 technologies at this point, lightning payment channels or rollups on eth, etc. The blockchain itself is like a settlement layer. Our current financial system is also layered similarly btw. When you buy something with your credit card, it doesn't settle right away.

Spivak 5y ago
But then the issue is that the settlement layer becomes an arbitrary implementation detail. The second layer is the thing that really matters. The settlement can happen in dollars or some stock in a portfolio of assets like what Libra wanted to do. Is Bitcoin the best thing to use as an settlement layer?
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  The 2nd layer always maps to the settlement layer as in you're still transacting in Bitcoin, you just don't broadcast the signed transactions to the whole network because you expect to continue your transactions. You can use eth or any of the thousands of other crypto-currencies, Bitcoin benefits from being the most secure and also having the largest network effects due to being the earliest. When it comes to money, security is the most important thing and Bitcoin offers the most secure settlement layer.
- swensel 5y ago
  If a credit card is the example of a layer 2, with dollars being the base layer, would you say that dollars don't matter then, and the only thing that matters is the layer 2?
  - Spivak 5y ago
    You have it backwards. With credit/bank cards the second layer is dollars that we're transact in. If financial institutions decided to settle amongst themselves with commodity stocks, government bonds or FedCoins would you even notice? It just happens that in the US dollars also make a good settlement layer.
    - swensel 5y ago
      Good point. Would I notice? Yes, most likely. Would people who don't pay attention notice? No, probably not. I was giving an example that Bitcoin and layer 2 solutions are related, similar to how dollars and credit cards are related. My point was if the layer 2 networks have value, it doesn't mean Bitcoin doesn't have any value. Even in the cases you raise, dollars still probably will have some value. I don't see the dollar collapsing any time soon. Is Bitcoin the best settlement layer? I'm not sure yet. IMO, Bitcoin / cryptocurrency in general does have some value since it is enabling new technologies, like layer 2 solutions, to be developed, when they otherwise would not have been. I think new technology is valuable.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
There's also Monero which is everything Bitcoin was supposed to be and much more. Why bother trying to fix bitcoin when a solution already exists? There's absolutely no need for this layer 2 stuff.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  There are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that claim to have better tech than Bitcoin in terms of privacy, speed or fees. This is the case of having a better technology doesn't matter, Bitcoin came at a very lucky time and also grew organically for many years and had arguably the fairest coin distributions (most coins nowadays are shilled very heavily by it's developers and investors). It's also the most secure and well-known. Because of those things, it'll be very difficult if not impossible to unseat Bitcoin when it comes to store of value/currency. Bitcoin also sees development in form of lightning network. For all other use cases, I think eth covers most bases and has also developed a very large network of users and developers. So whatever next big crypto project comes needs to be not just "better", but like at least 10x better.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > There are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that claim to have better tech than Bitcoin in terms of privacy, speed or fees. Monero isn't just claiming this though. It actually delivers on its promises. It's actually private, authorities are having trouble tracing it. Criminals are already switching to Monero. Transactions are fast and the fees are low. It's mineable by ordinary CPUs, no centralized ASIC/GPU mining operations in China. Since mining is more decentralized, nobody opposes improvements to the Monero blockchain like the bitcoin and ethereum miners do. > at least 10x better Monero is pretty much infinitely better. If any coin is positioned to unseat bitcoin it's Monero. If there's any sanity left in this cryptocurrency market this will happen one day.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Monero is pretty much infinitely better, that's why gov hates it.

Spivak 5y ago

But then the issue is that the settlement layer becomes an arbitrary implementation detail. The second layer is the thing that really matters. The settlement can happen in dollars or some stock in a portfolio of assets like what Libra wanted to do. Is Bitcoin the best thing to use as an settlement layer?

rawtxapp 5y ago
The 2nd layer always maps to the settlement layer as in you're still transacting in Bitcoin, you just don't broadcast the signed transactions to the whole network because you expect to continue your transactions. You can use eth or any of the thousands of other crypto-currencies, Bitcoin benefits from being the most secure and also having the largest network effects due to being the earliest. When it comes to money, security is the most important thing and Bitcoin offers the most secure settlement layer.
swensel 5y ago
If a credit card is the example of a layer 2, with dollars being the base layer, would you say that dollars don't matter then, and the only thing that matters is the layer 2?
- Spivak 5y ago
  You have it backwards. With credit/bank cards the second layer is dollars that we're transact in. If financial institutions decided to settle amongst themselves with commodity stocks, government bonds or FedCoins would you even notice? It just happens that in the US dollars also make a good settlement layer.
  - swensel 5y ago
    Good point. Would I notice? Yes, most likely. Would people who don't pay attention notice? No, probably not. I was giving an example that Bitcoin and layer 2 solutions are related, similar to how dollars and credit cards are related. My point was if the layer 2 networks have value, it doesn't mean Bitcoin doesn't have any value. Even in the cases you raise, dollars still probably will have some value. I don't see the dollar collapsing any time soon. Is Bitcoin the best settlement layer? I'm not sure yet. IMO, Bitcoin / cryptocurrency in general does have some value since it is enabling new technologies, like layer 2 solutions, to be developed, when they otherwise would not have been. I think new technology is valuable.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

There's also Monero which is everything Bitcoin was supposed to be and much more. Why bother trying to fix bitcoin when a solution already exists? There's absolutely no need for this layer 2 stuff.

rawtxapp 5y ago
There are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that claim to have better tech than Bitcoin in terms of privacy, speed or fees. This is the case of having a better technology doesn't matter, Bitcoin came at a very lucky time and also grew organically for many years and had arguably the fairest coin distributions (most coins nowadays are shilled very heavily by it's developers and investors). It's also the most secure and well-known. Because of those things, it'll be very difficult if not impossible to unseat Bitcoin when it comes to store of value/currency. Bitcoin also sees development in form of lightning network. For all other use cases, I think eth covers most bases and has also developed a very large network of users and developers. So whatever next big crypto project comes needs to be not just "better", but like at least 10x better.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > There are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that claim to have better tech than Bitcoin in terms of privacy, speed or fees. Monero isn't just claiming this though. It actually delivers on its promises. It's actually private, authorities are having trouble tracing it. Criminals are already switching to Monero. Transactions are fast and the fees are low. It's mineable by ordinary CPUs, no centralized ASIC/GPU mining operations in China. Since mining is more decentralized, nobody opposes improvements to the Monero blockchain like the bitcoin and ethereum miners do. > at least 10x better Monero is pretty much infinitely better. If any coin is positioned to unseat bitcoin it's Monero. If there's any sanity left in this cryptocurrency market this will happen one day.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Monero is pretty much infinitely better, that's why gov hates it.