5 ms·

> It's a bad career choice Is that because other people look down on it? That's not what I would call intrinsically bad. I've heard of people paying their wa

> It's a bad career choice Is that because other people look down on it? That's not what I would call intrinsically bad. I've heard of people paying their way through college via prostitution, who say that it's much better than e.g. working as a waitress. Also, I'm sure it teaches social skills and bargaining. > it's not safe Many jobs aren't safe, such as coal mining. Usually the pay is at a premium to compensate. > it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing That is subjective. Want me to go look for prostitutes who have said in an interview or public blog that they find it empowering? > it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships In what way? If a man cheats on his wife by going to see a prostitute, that's obviously a problem for the marriage, though one could argue that the man being willing to do that in the first place was the problem. (If the only reason a husband doesn't cheat on his wife is because there isn't an available prostitute nearby, that marriage is obviously at the breaking point already.) I would argue, furthermore, that there are probably a lot of men who get into relationships just to have sex, while the women are usually looking for more than that, which probably leads some of those men to misrepresent their intentions; and that if these men had a relatively cheap and safe alternative for getting sex, this might make the relationship market a lot more honest and healthy.

pyuser583 6y ago
Ok, imagine I lost my job. I file for unemployment. As a condition of receiving unemployment, I have to accept any reasonable job offers. Shortly after going on employment, a man approaches me, offers me money to “go on dates.” Says he’ll give me a salary and “make it all legal.” If I say no, so I still get unemployment? If prostitution is a perfectly fine occupation, why not? Legal forms of sex work (stripping, etc) have a special legal status that allows people to receive unemployment benefits while rejecting those positions. The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.”
- waterhouse 6y ago
  So, how about coal mining, or working as a cop in a heavily crime-ridden city, or other jobs that one might reasonably consider unacceptably dangerous? Is there a special legal status for those? If so, you could put prostitution into that category for starters (at least until legalization makes it safer). (If not, then I would consider this unemployment policy rather invasive.) How about working as a rabbi or a Mormon preacher? Or as someone who distributes leaflets for a Republican politician? There's probably a special status for those, too, right? "Against my fundamental beliefs". You could put it in that category too. Acting would be another case. You have to wear costumes and perform the actions that a potentially creepy director wants you to! (And I've heard it's not that rare for this to actually be of the form "director wants an actress to wear a revealing costume and then makes sexual advances on her".) > The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.” I believe that other people believe that.
- claytongulick 6y ago
  There's some difficulty parsing your reasoning. Can you clearly define for me what sex work is and isn't? Is exotic dancing? How about a scantily clad pop star? Live video pornhub "actress"? Movie star in a sex scene? Cheerleader? Fashion model? Bikini model? Cabana boy? Shirtless ripped beach bartender? Bodybuilder? Which is sex work, which isn't? Are they all dehumanizing? When sex, and the pursuit thereof, takes up more time in humans than any other known species (ref: Sex At Dawn) I think it would be more reasonable to claim that sex work is pretty much the most human profession a person can engage in. Certainly, focusing on physical attributes and acts isn't everyone's preference, either for leisure or work - but claiming it is "bad and dehumanizing" is a stretch.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  A reasonable offer is an offer of a job that you applied for. Random people saying 'hey cutie wanna be a sex worker' do not comprise offers.
- jfrunyon 6y ago
  You said it yourself: reasonable. And no, the logic is not that it's bad and dehumanizing, the logic is that some people are truly opposed to doing it. Similarly, if I'm on unemployment, I do not have to, say, go drive a garbage truck just because I see someone hiring garbage truck drivers.
  - Dma54rhs 6y ago
    In many countries you do have to accept job offers that you don't like in order to receive benefits or healthcare. If sex work is work, I don't see a reason to make a difference.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Buying and selling and using marijuana in Colorado is pretty safe these days. Two decades you could've been arrested, in gang violence among different gangs selling drugs, etc... because of "black market"... If someone is already a prostitute by choice and not trafficked/etc they have a higher than normal chance of being murdered by serial killers... I think one third of serial killers have targeted prostitutes. It may be bad, dehumanizing but so is just throwing them to the serial killers...at least making it legal allows for some sun to shine on the industry and for related services/industries to spring up like protection services to keep track of where they are and if they don't check in send out someone to check, etc... It also makes the trafficking and dirtier/seedier sides of things easier to police because those are the only things to police now, and if someone is hiding something then they're probably not legit/legal.
gregw2 6y ago
I get it, but there are just so many holes in this line of thinking. Once it becomes legal, the supply goes up, prices go down and it won't "get you through college". Plus I don't see why our decisions on prostitution have to be driven by the economic policies that have increased college tuition 2-3x faster than the rate of inflation for 30 years. Also you will have corporations form to market, manipulate and addict people to their "product". Do we really want to go there? Thailand and Amsterdam and Las Vegas are fine places (sorta) but they dont provide the joy one would hope from the "empowering" you think is so great. Also I would think in an era of COVID awareness people should consider the public health reasons from STDs (but not just those) why sex work will overall lead to more sickness and death if we promulgate it via market mechanisms. Overall are sickness and death likely to increase or decrease? I'm not sure where you are going with your argument (speculation? sources?) that a lot of men get married just to have sex. If they want purely the sexual pleasure there are plenty of ways to get that that are a lot easier and less consuming than getting married! (Porn, devices, etc) If they want companionship over time, you don't really get that through prostitution. (Escort/rent-a-dates are legal as are hiring assistants). If they want kids and to raise them prostitution won't help. If it's not just orgasms which men want and what men is the appearance of a woman being interested in them, smiling, acting sexy per webcam culture... but what the woman wants is money, I get that if we legalize prostitution we enable that illusion for the man and economic power for the woman but what is the great benefit of that? We undercut our efforts for women/daughters to get paid equally for their minds to create and instead push them into selling their bodies and abilities to deceive men as part of their job. OK we've created a market, but to what end? Look, I get that people think the status quo on this should be reconsidered but it looks like more rich people wanting to use their money to get whatever they want without consideration of the people servicing them, hoping that some anecdotes of trickle down "success" hide the misery of the system they want to promulgate. Sorry for the rant. Nothing personal.
- waterhouse 6y ago
  > Once it becomes legal, the supply goes up, prices go down Then I guess fewer people will decide to do it for economic reasons, and you'll be pleased with that? Seems ok. > Plus I don't see why our decisions on prostitution have to be driven by the economic policies that have increased college tuition 2-3x faster than the rate of inflation for 30 years. College was an example of something expensive that a lot of people want to pay for. (I do think college is becoming a less worthwhile proposition as time goes on, and didn't go myself.) Buying a car would be another example. My argument really doesn't depend on why people want to earn money, only that there exists a good reason. > Also you will have corporations form to market, manipulate and addict people to their "product". That, as a potential concern, applies to every product ever. Only in this case the sex drive is created by biology. And actually, the whole concept of "sex sells" means that they put sexy people all over the media already; and there are already sex-focused ads to try to get people to pay for porn and stuff; I don't think having ads for prostitution would make a difference here. > STDs Have you read about the precautions they take? I quote from a 2005 article about Nevada's Bunny Ranch: "According to law, condom use is mandatory for sex and oral sex as is periodic testing [looks like the period is "weekly"] for brothel employees. Since 1986, when mandatory HIV testing began, not a single brothel prostitute has tested positive." Also: "In the room, the men are inspected under a bright light to check for any visual evidence of sexually transmitted diseases." I think some street prostitutes but not all require condoms, and I really doubt that the majority of them get tested weekly. (The same can be said of people who go to nightclubs and hook up with a stranger for the night.) So it seems plausible that legalizing would lead to better safety. > I'm not sure where you are going with your argument (speculation? sources?) that a lot of men get married just to have sex. I said they get into relationships, not marriage. (There probably are some from very conservative backgrounds who believe in no sex before marriage [which also likely correlates with considering masturbation and/or porn to be a sin] who do end up marrying primarily for sex; but otherwise, yes, it's clearly a bad idea.) > If they want ... Lots of guys want lots of different things from a prostitute. Some want the pleasure of orgasm (and find it better than what they can get via masturbation). Some have never had sex and want to get some experience. Some want to have sex with a particular kind of woman. Some have an embarrassing fetish they want to explore. Some pay for her time and actually just cuddle with her. I'm sure there's a lot more. > We undercut our efforts for women/daughters to get paid equally for their minds to create and instead push them into selling their bodies and abilities to deceive men Who said anything about pushing them into prostitution? I just want the option to be there, for those who think it suits them. I am absolutely against pushing anyone into a career path they're uncomfortable with. (If economic necessity pushes them to choose a path, and this seems like a bad option but the least bad one, then, well, taking that option away would make things even worse.) > it looks like more rich people wanting to use their money to get whatever they want without consideration of the people servicing them The rich can already do that, either through their network if they have a decent one, or just by traveling to a place where it is legal. This would be more about making it more available and safe for the middle and lower classes. Look. Fundamentally, my stance is that people have a right to do what they want with their bodies, which includes selling sexual services. Using the force of law to prevent them from doing that violates their rights. You would need a very strong argument ("this will cause terrible harm") to justify such a violation. But when I examine the consequences, they seem to me "probably positive overall". On the personal angle, if it were legalized in my area, I'd consider trying it out (as a customer), but I'm paranoid enough about incurable STDs that even with their precautions I'd likely avoid it. (FYI, recreational drugs are another thing that I'm very much in favor of legalizing—for similar rights-based reasons—but have no intention to take advantage of myself.) And if I did it, I would certainly want someone who seemed enthusiastic and comfortable with the whole thing; if I got the impression that she really didn't like it but was putting up with it, that would make me rather uncomfortable with the situation.

pyuser583 6y ago

Ok, imagine I lost my job. I file for unemployment. As a condition of receiving unemployment, I have to accept any reasonable job offers. Shortly after going on employment, a man approaches me, offers me money to “go on dates.” Says he’ll give me a salary and “make it all legal.” If I say no, so I still get unemployment? If prostitution is a perfectly fine occupation, why not? Legal forms of sex work (stripping, etc) have a special legal status that allows people to receive unemployment benefits while rejecting those positions. The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.”

waterhouse 6y ago
So, how about coal mining, or working as a cop in a heavily crime-ridden city, or other jobs that one might reasonably consider unacceptably dangerous? Is there a special legal status for those? If so, you could put prostitution into that category for starters (at least until legalization makes it safer). (If not, then I would consider this unemployment policy rather invasive.) How about working as a rabbi or a Mormon preacher? Or as someone who distributes leaflets for a Republican politician? There's probably a special status for those, too, right? "Against my fundamental beliefs". You could put it in that category too. Acting would be another case. You have to wear costumes and perform the actions that a potentially creepy director wants you to! (And I've heard it's not that rare for this to actually be of the form "director wants an actress to wear a revealing costume and then makes sexual advances on her".) > The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.” I believe that other people believe that.
claytongulick 6y ago
There's some difficulty parsing your reasoning. Can you clearly define for me what sex work is and isn't? Is exotic dancing? How about a scantily clad pop star? Live video pornhub "actress"? Movie star in a sex scene? Cheerleader? Fashion model? Bikini model? Cabana boy? Shirtless ripped beach bartender? Bodybuilder? Which is sex work, which isn't? Are they all dehumanizing? When sex, and the pursuit thereof, takes up more time in humans than any other known species (ref: Sex At Dawn) I think it would be more reasonable to claim that sex work is pretty much the most human profession a person can engage in. Certainly, focusing on physical attributes and acts isn't everyone's preference, either for leisure or work - but claiming it is "bad and dehumanizing" is a stretch.
anigbrowl 6y ago
A reasonable offer is an offer of a job that you applied for. Random people saying 'hey cutie wanna be a sex worker' do not comprise offers.
jfrunyon 6y ago
You said it yourself: reasonable. And no, the logic is not that it's bad and dehumanizing, the logic is that some people are truly opposed to doing it. Similarly, if I'm on unemployment, I do not have to, say, go drive a garbage truck just because I see someone hiring garbage truck drivers.
- Dma54rhs 6y ago
  In many countries you do have to accept job offers that you don't like in order to receive benefits or healthcare. If sex work is work, I don't see a reason to make a difference.
gremlinsinc 6y ago
Buying and selling and using marijuana in Colorado is pretty safe these days. Two decades you could've been arrested, in gang violence among different gangs selling drugs, etc... because of "black market"... If someone is already a prostitute by choice and not trafficked/etc they have a higher than normal chance of being murdered by serial killers... I think one third of serial killers have targeted prostitutes. It may be bad, dehumanizing but so is just throwing them to the serial killers...at least making it legal allows for some sun to shine on the industry and for related services/industries to spring up like protection services to keep track of where they are and if they don't check in send out someone to check, etc... It also makes the trafficking and dirtier/seedier sides of things easier to police because those are the only things to police now, and if someone is hiding something then they're probably not legit/legal.

gregw2 6y ago

I get it, but there are just so many holes in this line of thinking. Once it becomes legal, the supply goes up, prices go down and it won't "get you through college". Plus I don't see why our decisions on prostitution have to be driven by the economic policies that have increased college tuition 2-3x faster than the rate of inflation for 30 years. Also you will have corporations form to market, manipulate and addict people to their "product". Do we really want to go there? Thailand and Amsterdam and Las Vegas are fine places (sorta) but they dont provide the joy one would hope from the "empowering" you think is so great. Also I would think in an era of COVID awareness people should consider the public health reasons from STDs (but not just those) why sex work will overall lead to more sickness and death if we promulgate it via market mechanisms. Overall are sickness and death likely to increase or decrease? I'm not sure where you are going with your argument (speculation? sources?) that a lot of men get married just to have sex. If they want purely the sexual pleasure there are plenty of ways to get that that are a lot easier and less consuming than getting married! (Porn, devices, etc) If they want companionship over time, you don't really get that through prostitution. (Escort/rent-a-dates are legal as are hiring assistants). If they want kids and to raise them prostitution won't help. If it's not just orgasms which men want and what men is the appearance of a woman being interested in them, smiling, acting sexy per webcam culture... but what the woman wants is money, I get that if we legalize prostitution we enable that illusion for the man and economic power for the woman but what is the great benefit of that? We undercut our efforts for women/daughters to get paid equally for their minds to create and instead push them into selling their bodies and abilities to deceive men as part of their job. OK we've created a market, but to what end? Look, I get that people think the status quo on this should be reconsidered but it looks like more rich people wanting to use their money to get whatever they want without consideration of the people servicing them, hoping that some anecdotes of trickle down "success" hide the misery of the system they want to promulgate. Sorry for the rant. Nothing personal.

waterhouse 6y ago
> Once it becomes legal, the supply goes up, prices go down Then I guess fewer people will decide to do it for economic reasons, and you'll be pleased with that? Seems ok. > Plus I don't see why our decisions on prostitution have to be driven by the economic policies that have increased college tuition 2-3x faster than the rate of inflation for 30 years. College was an example of something expensive that a lot of people want to pay for. (I do think college is becoming a less worthwhile proposition as time goes on, and didn't go myself.) Buying a car would be another example. My argument really doesn't depend on why people want to earn money, only that there exists a good reason. > Also you will have corporations form to market, manipulate and addict people to their "product". That, as a potential concern, applies to every product ever. Only in this case the sex drive is created by biology. And actually, the whole concept of "sex sells" means that they put sexy people all over the media already; and there are already sex-focused ads to try to get people to pay for porn and stuff; I don't think having ads for prostitution would make a difference here. > STDs Have you read about the precautions they take? I quote from a 2005 article about Nevada's Bunny Ranch: "According to law, condom use is mandatory for sex and oral sex as is periodic testing [looks like the period is "weekly"] for brothel employees. Since 1986, when mandatory HIV testing began, not a single brothel prostitute has tested positive." Also: "In the room, the men are inspected under a bright light to check for any visual evidence of sexually transmitted diseases." I think some street prostitutes but not all require condoms, and I really doubt that the majority of them get tested weekly. (The same can be said of people who go to nightclubs and hook up with a stranger for the night.) So it seems plausible that legalizing would lead to better safety. > I'm not sure where you are going with your argument (speculation? sources?) that a lot of men get married just to have sex. I said they get into relationships, not marriage. (There probably are some from very conservative backgrounds who believe in no sex before marriage [which also likely correlates with considering masturbation and/or porn to be a sin] who do end up marrying primarily for sex; but otherwise, yes, it's clearly a bad idea.) > If they want ... Lots of guys want lots of different things from a prostitute. Some want the pleasure of orgasm (and find it better than what they can get via masturbation). Some have never had sex and want to get some experience. Some want to have sex with a particular kind of woman. Some have an embarrassing fetish they want to explore. Some pay for her time and actually just cuddle with her. I'm sure there's a lot more. > We undercut our efforts for women/daughters to get paid equally for their minds to create and instead push them into selling their bodies and abilities to deceive men Who said anything about pushing them into prostitution? I just want the option to be there, for those who think it suits them. I am absolutely against pushing anyone into a career path they're uncomfortable with. (If economic necessity pushes them to choose a path, and this seems like a bad option but the least bad one, then, well, taking that option away would make things even worse.) > it looks like more rich people wanting to use their money to get whatever they want without consideration of the people servicing them The rich can already do that, either through their network if they have a decent one, or just by traveling to a place where it is legal. This would be more about making it more available and safe for the middle and lower classes. Look. Fundamentally, my stance is that people have a right to do what they want with their bodies, which includes selling sexual services. Using the force of law to prevent them from doing that violates their rights. You would need a very strong argument ("this will cause terrible harm") to justify such a violation. But when I examine the consequences, they seem to me "probably positive overall". On the personal angle, if it were legalized in my area, I'd consider trying it out (as a customer), but I'm paranoid enough about incurable STDs that even with their precautions I'd likely avoid it. (FYI, recreational drugs are another thing that I'm very much in favor of legalizing—for similar rights-based reasons—but have no intention to take advantage of myself.) And if I did it, I would certainly want someone who seemed enthusiastic and comfortable with the whole thing; if I got the impression that she really didn't like it but was putting up with it, that would make me rather uncomfortable with the situation.