5 ms·

It's pretty clear that prostitution is bad. It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehum

by slibhb 6y ago

It's pretty clear that prostitution is bad. It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing, and it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships. The questions are whether you think it's appropriate for the law to have an opinion about these things, whether you think the current law is effective, and whether you think the current law infringes on people's liberty too much. It could conceivably be that legalizing prostitution is a good move. But, while I'd like to think otherwise, I don't think it's obvious that we can afford to stop enforcing laws that are essentially about guiding people to avoid bad choices.

smabie 6y ago
I don't think it's bad.
AlphaSite 6y ago
> sale of a person's body Arguably, working in a factory is equally a transaction where the company borrows your body for a fixed rate. So I’m not convinced that that holds. Nor do I agree that it’s bad for marriage or long term relationships necessarily, can you elaborate?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
betwixthewires 6y ago
Not who you're responding to, but > It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing Any form of manual labor is selling your body, all work done out of necessity is dehumanizing to a degree, lots of work is not safe and pay usually reflects that. > and it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships. The average rate of divorce is 50% in the US. 50% of all marriages. And you have to imagine that most of those divorced get remarried, so most people have been divorced! I don't see how legalizing an existing behavior that is widely engaged in would change it much either way. Try to imagine a scenario in which a couple stays married 30 years, but wouldn't have if it weren't illegal for one partner to pay for sex, does that sound like a likely scenario to you? One might argue that people would be less likely to marry out of desperation, or that equalizing sexual options across the board increases people's likelihood to treat their partners well. If anything you'd get a smaller number of marriages that more often last, and that's speculation, but it is the most reasonable speculation. > The questions are whether you think it's appropriate for the law to have an opinion about these things, whether you think the current law is effective, and whether you think the current law infringes on people's liberty too much. Yes, I believe this was the question you were responding to. > I don't think it's obvious that we can afford to stop enforcing laws that are essentially about guiding people to avoid bad choices Really? I think it is fairly obvious. The job of the law and the role of deterrent is to protect people from others, not to protect people from themselves. This is a pretty foundational point when talking about liberty and tyranny. It's why seat belts were not required in New Hampshire (the "live free or die" state) up until very recently. It is why we lobby to legalize everything that is illegal that we want legalized, that an individual has the right to do things that are potentially bad for themselves, that their own judgment is the one they best defer to. Maybe masturbation and anal sex should be illegal as well? What do you think?
Sargos 6y ago
>It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing This describes a ton of jobs. Especially minimum wage jobs. Hot dog suit sign spinner would meet this definition.
waterhouse 6y ago
> It's a bad career choice Is that because other people look down on it? That's not what I would call intrinsically bad. I've heard of people paying their way through college via prostitution, who say that it's much better than e.g. working as a waitress. Also, I'm sure it teaches social skills and bargaining. > it's not safe Many jobs aren't safe, such as coal mining. Usually the pay is at a premium to compensate. > it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing That is subjective. Want me to go look for prostitutes who have said in an interview or public blog that they find it empowering? > it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships In what way? If a man cheats on his wife by going to see a prostitute, that's obviously a problem for the marriage, though one could argue that the man being willing to do that in the first place was the problem. (If the only reason a husband doesn't cheat on his wife is because there isn't an available prostitute nearby, that marriage is obviously at the breaking point already.) I would argue, furthermore, that there are probably a lot of men who get into relationships just to have sex, while the women are usually looking for more than that, which probably leads some of those men to misrepresent their intentions; and that if these men had a relatively cheap and safe alternative for getting sex, this might make the relationship market a lot more honest and healthy.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  Ok, imagine I lost my job. I file for unemployment. As a condition of receiving unemployment, I have to accept any reasonable job offers. Shortly after going on employment, a man approaches me, offers me money to “go on dates.” Says he’ll give me a salary and “make it all legal.” If I say no, so I still get unemployment? If prostitution is a perfectly fine occupation, why not? Legal forms of sex work (stripping, etc) have a special legal status that allows people to receive unemployment benefits while rejecting those positions. The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.”
  - waterhouse 6y ago
    So, how about coal mining, or working as a cop in a heavily crime-ridden city, or other jobs that one might reasonably consider unacceptably dangerous? Is there a special legal status for those? If so, you could put prostitution into that category for starters (at least until legalization makes it safer). (If not, then I would consider this unemployment policy rather invasive.) How about working as a rabbi or a Mormon preacher? Or as someone who distributes leaflets for a Republican politician? There's probably a special status for those, too, right? "Against my fundamental beliefs". You could put it in that category too. Acting would be another case. You have to wear costumes and perform the actions that a potentially creepy director wants you to! (And I've heard it's not that rare for this to actually be of the form "director wants an actress to wear a revealing costume and then makes sexual advances on her".) > The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.” I believe that other people believe that.
Pfhreak 6y ago
> It's pretty clear that prostitution is bad. I'm sorry, it's not at all clear that is true. > it's not safe almost by definition If it's illegal, sure. It absolutely could be done safely. > it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing This describes all wage labor. > it's bad for marriage One, not sure that's true. Two, who cares? Let the folks who want to get married get married, but those who don't, do their own thing.
- Noos 6y ago
  What would really solve this is if guys had to do it. I mean, imagine if you had to service other guys for your pay, no matter how ugly they were, no matter how little you liked them, and often with little power to stop them. I say with other guys to ensure that it isn't a pleasurable experience for most of you in the way it wouldn't be for women. It's not something we as a culture want to have. You all need to have a bit of empathy, to be blunt; prostitution in general has never been something the majority of women liked, and it often was something forced on them.
  - nulld3v 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure the garbage man doesn't want to go to work everyday too. Just because no one wants to do a job doesn't mean it should be illegal. There's a lot of jobs that I think shouldn't have to exist. But the reality is that they do have to exist, because people need to make a living. I believe prostitution shouldn't be illegal for the same reasons that you believe it should be illegal. Empathy.
    - solipsism 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure the garbage man doesn't want to go to work everyday too. Are you talking about your specific garbage man? Because plenty of waste collectors like their jobs. This statement comes off as very elitist, though you probably didn't intend it that way.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    Men DO do prostitution. It's extremely common in the gay community.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
> it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing The same could be said about any physical labor job. Arguably, the main reason safety is so difficult to enforce is that it is a black market practice with zero regulation. > it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships. Millions of people live their entire lives without marriage or even long term exclusive monogamous relationships. Most people who do sex work don't plan to do it for decades. There is no need to demand that people live their lives in a way condusive to marriage.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
CuriouslyC 6y ago
Working at McDonalds is dehumanizing too, and the pay is way worse. As for being bad for relationships, I find that somewhat dubious. The criminal element being involved in prostitution is what makes it bad. Without that, it'd just be a profitable job for young women of certain types, and an outlet for incels who might otherwise end up mass shooters.

by slibhb 6y ago

smabie 6y ago

I don't think it's bad.

AlphaSite 6y ago

> sale of a person's body Arguably, working in a factory is equally a transaction where the company borrows your body for a fixed rate. So I’m not convinced that that holds. Nor do I agree that it’s bad for marriage or long term relationships necessarily, can you elaborate?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

betwixthewires 6y ago

Not who you're responding to, but > It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing Any form of manual labor is selling your body, all work done out of necessity is dehumanizing to a degree, lots of work is not safe and pay usually reflects that. > and it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships. The average rate of divorce is 50% in the US. 50% of all marriages. And you have to imagine that most of those divorced get remarried, so most people have been divorced! I don't see how legalizing an existing behavior that is widely engaged in would change it much either way. Try to imagine a scenario in which a couple stays married 30 years, but wouldn't have if it weren't illegal for one partner to pay for sex, does that sound like a likely scenario to you? One might argue that people would be less likely to marry out of desperation, or that equalizing sexual options across the board increases people's likelihood to treat their partners well. If anything you'd get a smaller number of marriages that more often last, and that's speculation, but it is the most reasonable speculation. > The questions are whether you think it's appropriate for the law to have an opinion about these things, whether you think the current law is effective, and whether you think the current law infringes on people's liberty too much. Yes, I believe this was the question you were responding to. > I don't think it's obvious that we can afford to stop enforcing laws that are essentially about guiding people to avoid bad choices Really? I think it is fairly obvious. The job of the law and the role of deterrent is to protect people from others, not to protect people from themselves. This is a pretty foundational point when talking about liberty and tyranny. It's why seat belts were not required in New Hampshire (the "live free or die" state) up until very recently. It is why we lobby to legalize everything that is illegal that we want legalized, that an individual has the right to do things that are potentially bad for themselves, that their own judgment is the one they best defer to. Maybe masturbation and anal sex should be illegal as well? What do you think?

Sargos 6y ago

>It's a bad career choice, it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing This describes a ton of jobs. Especially minimum wage jobs. Hot dog suit sign spinner would meet this definition.

waterhouse 6y ago

> It's a bad career choice Is that because other people look down on it? That's not what I would call intrinsically bad. I've heard of people paying their way through college via prostitution, who say that it's much better than e.g. working as a waitress. Also, I'm sure it teaches social skills and bargaining. > it's not safe Many jobs aren't safe, such as coal mining. Usually the pay is at a premium to compensate. > it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing That is subjective. Want me to go look for prostitutes who have said in an interview or public blog that they find it empowering? > it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships In what way? If a man cheats on his wife by going to see a prostitute, that's obviously a problem for the marriage, though one could argue that the man being willing to do that in the first place was the problem. (If the only reason a husband doesn't cheat on his wife is because there isn't an available prostitute nearby, that marriage is obviously at the breaking point already.) I would argue, furthermore, that there are probably a lot of men who get into relationships just to have sex, while the women are usually looking for more than that, which probably leads some of those men to misrepresent their intentions; and that if these men had a relatively cheap and safe alternative for getting sex, this might make the relationship market a lot more honest and healthy.

pyuser583 6y ago
Ok, imagine I lost my job. I file for unemployment. As a condition of receiving unemployment, I have to accept any reasonable job offers. Shortly after going on employment, a man approaches me, offers me money to “go on dates.” Says he’ll give me a salary and “make it all legal.” If I say no, so I still get unemployment? If prostitution is a perfectly fine occupation, why not? Legal forms of sex work (stripping, etc) have a special legal status that allows people to receive unemployment benefits while rejecting those positions. The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.”
- waterhouse 6y ago
  So, how about coal mining, or working as a cop in a heavily crime-ridden city, or other jobs that one might reasonably consider unacceptably dangerous? Is there a special legal status for those? If so, you could put prostitution into that category for starters (at least until legalization makes it safer). (If not, then I would consider this unemployment policy rather invasive.) How about working as a rabbi or a Mormon preacher? Or as someone who distributes leaflets for a Republican politician? There's probably a special status for those, too, right? "Against my fundamental beliefs". You could put it in that category too. Acting would be another case. You have to wear costumes and perform the actions that a potentially creepy director wants you to! (And I've heard it's not that rare for this to actually be of the form "director wants an actress to wear a revealing costume and then makes sexual advances on her".) > The logic behind this is “sex work is bad and dehumanizing.” I believe that other people believe that.

Pfhreak 6y ago

> It's pretty clear that prostitution is bad. I'm sorry, it's not at all clear that is true. > it's not safe almost by definition If it's illegal, sure. It absolutely could be done safely. > it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing This describes all wage labor. > it's bad for marriage One, not sure that's true. Two, who cares? Let the folks who want to get married get married, but those who don't, do their own thing.

Noos 6y ago
What would really solve this is if guys had to do it. I mean, imagine if you had to service other guys for your pay, no matter how ugly they were, no matter how little you liked them, and often with little power to stop them. I say with other guys to ensure that it isn't a pleasurable experience for most of you in the way it wouldn't be for women. It's not something we as a culture want to have. You all need to have a bit of empathy, to be blunt; prostitution in general has never been something the majority of women liked, and it often was something forced on them.
- nulld3v 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure the garbage man doesn't want to go to work everyday too. Just because no one wants to do a job doesn't mean it should be illegal. There's a lot of jobs that I think shouldn't have to exist. But the reality is that they do have to exist, because people need to make a living. I believe prostitution shouldn't be illegal for the same reasons that you believe it should be illegal. Empathy.
  - solipsism 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure the garbage man doesn't want to go to work everyday too. Are you talking about your specific garbage man? Because plenty of waste collectors like their jobs. This statement comes off as very elitist, though you probably didn't intend it that way.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Men DO do prostitution. It's extremely common in the gay community.

thomastjeffery 6y ago

> it's not safe almost by definition, it involves the sale of a person's body which is dehumanizing The same could be said about any physical labor job. Arguably, the main reason safety is so difficult to enforce is that it is a black market practice with zero regulation. > it's bad for marriage and for people being in long-term relationships. Millions of people live their entire lives without marriage or even long term exclusive monogamous relationships. Most people who do sex work don't plan to do it for decades. There is no need to demand that people live their lives in a way condusive to marriage.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

CuriouslyC 6y ago

Working at McDonalds is dehumanizing too, and the pay is way worse. As for being bad for relationships, I find that somewhat dubious. The criminal element being involved in prostitution is what makes it bad. Without that, it'd just be a profitable job for young women of certain types, and an outlet for incels who might otherwise end up mass shooters.