2 ms·

Their name has "socialist" right in the middle of it. You might argue over definitions of socialism and whether it's left or right. But I don't think you can sa

Their name has "socialist" right in the middle of it. You might argue over definitions of socialism and whether it's left or right. But I don't think you can say "a group that calls itself socialist has at least this one left-leaning trait" isn't a position reasonable people can disagree on. What I find worse than people going both ways on wether nazis are left or right leaning, is someone in a position of authority like wikipedia saying, one side is objectively right [about a question that isn't even rigorously posed] and will be treated as such.

the_only_law 6y ago
I suppose you believe the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is democratic then?
- jasonfarnon 6y ago
  Oh, I don't think socialism is only in the name of nazis, I think their nationalization of many practices and aspects of culture is key. Do you think "nazis had socialist tendencies" is a position that no reasonable people can take? I didn't mean to suggest taking the name itself as the only evidence of socialism.
  - danans 6y ago
    > Do you think "nazis had socialist tendencies" is a position that no reasonable people can take? Yes, because a socialism that benefits only members of the "Aryan race" while excluding, oppressing and murdering others in the same country is not socialism at all.
    - throwaway4china 6y ago
      I'd say that's a staple of socialism/communism/marxism. From Mao to Venezuela, the core idea depends upon excluding, oppressing, and murder of others in the same country based on class. The only thing different about the Nazis is they targeted by race not class, though Communist China is targeting Uighur and other minorities in their country.
      - danans 6y ago
        > excluding, oppressing, and murder of others in the same country based on class. > The only thing different about the Nazis is they targeted by race The government excluding, oppressing, murdering based on race ... so the American south was socialist then right?
        throwaway4china 6y ago
        Yes, in a way, the Dixiecrats never changed.
    - jokethrowaway 6y ago
      That can very well be socialism for a subgroup of your existing population. I think the divergence in views is in the definition of socialism we have; I see it as an economical doctrine of state centralisation, you probably have other egalitarian ideals attached to it. Economically, on a scale from free-market to socialism, where do you think nazis rank? I think they were closer to socialism that nowadays mainstream left wing parties
      - danans 6y ago
        > That can very well be socialism for a subgroup of your existing population. This is like calling ancient Sparta - where the Spartans lived in an egalitarian structure while simultaneously oppressing their Helot slaves - socialism. Or for a more a recent example, apartheid South Africa, where whites received a great deal of support via government policy that practically ensured their prosperity. That wasn't socialism, either. Socialism is not about centralized state control. It's about whether the state plays a strong role in ensuring a standard of living for all it's citizens. In successful examples (like Social Security and Medicare in the US) it has accomplished this while the majority of the economy is not under state control.
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        That's exactly my point, there is a difference between the ideals of socialism and the economic doctrine which plays out when socialism gets implemented. In terms of economic policy, all the examples you cited are on the left side or going left in my book. There is definitely nothing capitalistic about state intervention. It also makes sense historically: it took us a long time to understand that capitalism is the most efficient way to create value and advance technology. Even the communist dictatorship that is China understood that and it's using this to rule the world, while the western world (especially the USA) marched back on their capitalism and hampered their economy with more and more regulations. I think we still don't have enough capitalism and we need a completely unregulated market and no government at all.
        danans 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
freeflight 6y ago
> But I don't think you can say "a group that calls itself socialist has at least this one left-leaning trait" isn't a position reasonable people can disagree on. It is to anybody actually familiar with the history of the NSDAP. The "socialism" in their name was mostly PR, what little socialist currents existed in the early NSDAP, represented by the Strasser brothers, was bloodily purged during the Night of the Long Knives. It's for that reason the very first victims in the concentration camp Dachau were not just Jews, they where German leftist political opposition Jews: Communists, socialists, antifascists, killed as early as 1933. The very same reason why Nazis considered the communist USSR as their arch-nemesis. > What I find worse than people going both ways on wether nazis are left or right leaning, is someone in a position of authority like wikipedia saying, one side is objectively right [about a question that isn't even rigorously posed] and will be treated as such. All this information can be found on Wikipedia, not just there, but also local Wikipedias from the places it actually happened. Like the Fuerth Wikipedia being even more in-depth and detailed [0], which is the city next to Nuremberg, both very relevant places for the early rise of Nazism. That's why it's really not this "open debate" you make it out to be. The only people who insist on that are usually US Americans, due to the caricature "atheist socialist leftist" boogeyman that's been peddled to them for decades and some Eastern Europeans with post-communism shock, to justify their ideological hard shift to the right into often straight up fascism. [0] https://www.fuerthwiki.de/wiki/index.php/Rudolf_Benario https://www.fuerthwiki.de/wiki/index.php/Rudolf_Benario
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  I've read extensively on the subject and I'm aware of the claims of using socialism as PR and I'm aware of the great purge. At the same time, Hitler viewed Marxism not only as a philosophy close to its own, but also as a rival. I don't think the first victims of Dachau prove anything. The only data I use to argue nazis were closer to socialism than free market capitalism is that their economy (despite having a semblance of a free economy) revolved around the state: prices, wages were fixed, members of the nazi party were put in control of private companies who disobeyed. Hitler was definitely to the right of Stalin, but he was left of most modern left wing parties. I also disagree with you that something is not open to debate, and I think it's worrying to hear people hold this view - especially on something so subjective as political categorisations. Some more reading material: https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-s... https://fee.org/articles/anti-racists-should-think-twice-about-allying-with-socialism/ https://fee.org/articles/anti-racists-should-think-twice-abo...

the_only_law 6y ago

I suppose you believe the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is democratic then?

jasonfarnon 6y ago
Oh, I don't think socialism is only in the name of nazis, I think their nationalization of many practices and aspects of culture is key. Do you think "nazis had socialist tendencies" is a position that no reasonable people can take? I didn't mean to suggest taking the name itself as the only evidence of socialism.
- danans 6y ago
  > Do you think "nazis had socialist tendencies" is a position that no reasonable people can take? Yes, because a socialism that benefits only members of the "Aryan race" while excluding, oppressing and murdering others in the same country is not socialism at all.
  - throwaway4china 6y ago
    I'd say that's a staple of socialism/communism/marxism. From Mao to Venezuela, the core idea depends upon excluding, oppressing, and murder of others in the same country based on class. The only thing different about the Nazis is they targeted by race not class, though Communist China is targeting Uighur and other minorities in their country.
    - danans 6y ago
      > excluding, oppressing, and murder of others in the same country based on class. > The only thing different about the Nazis is they targeted by race The government excluding, oppressing, murdering based on race ... so the American south was socialist then right?
      - throwaway4china 6y ago
        Yes, in a way, the Dixiecrats never changed.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    That can very well be socialism for a subgroup of your existing population. I think the divergence in views is in the definition of socialism we have; I see it as an economical doctrine of state centralisation, you probably have other egalitarian ideals attached to it. Economically, on a scale from free-market to socialism, where do you think nazis rank? I think they were closer to socialism that nowadays mainstream left wing parties
    - danans 6y ago
      > That can very well be socialism for a subgroup of your existing population. This is like calling ancient Sparta - where the Spartans lived in an egalitarian structure while simultaneously oppressing their Helot slaves - socialism. Or for a more a recent example, apartheid South Africa, where whites received a great deal of support via government policy that practically ensured their prosperity. That wasn't socialism, either. Socialism is not about centralized state control. It's about whether the state plays a strong role in ensuring a standard of living for all it's citizens. In successful examples (like Social Security and Medicare in the US) it has accomplished this while the majority of the economy is not under state control.
      - jokethrowaway 6y ago
        That's exactly my point, there is a difference between the ideals of socialism and the economic doctrine which plays out when socialism gets implemented. In terms of economic policy, all the examples you cited are on the left side or going left in my book. There is definitely nothing capitalistic about state intervention. It also makes sense historically: it took us a long time to understand that capitalism is the most efficient way to create value and advance technology. Even the communist dictatorship that is China understood that and it's using this to rule the world, while the western world (especially the USA) marched back on their capitalism and hampered their economy with more and more regulations. I think we still don't have enough capitalism and we need a completely unregulated market and no government at all.
        danans 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

freeflight 6y ago

> But I don't think you can say "a group that calls itself socialist has at least this one left-leaning trait" isn't a position reasonable people can disagree on. It is to anybody actually familiar with the history of the NSDAP. The "socialism" in their name was mostly PR, what little socialist currents existed in the early NSDAP, represented by the Strasser brothers, was bloodily purged during the Night of the Long Knives. It's for that reason the very first victims in the concentration camp Dachau were not just Jews, they where German leftist political opposition Jews: Communists, socialists, antifascists, killed as early as 1933. The very same reason why Nazis considered the communist USSR as their arch-nemesis. > What I find worse than people going both ways on wether nazis are left or right leaning, is someone in a position of authority like wikipedia saying, one side is objectively right [about a question that isn't even rigorously posed] and will be treated as such. All this information can be found on Wikipedia, not just there, but also local Wikipedias from the places it actually happened. Like the Fuerth Wikipedia being even more in-depth and detailed [0], which is the city next to Nuremberg, both very relevant places for the early rise of Nazism. That's why it's really not this "open debate" you make it out to be. The only people who insist on that are usually US Americans, due to the caricature "atheist socialist leftist" boogeyman that's been peddled to them for decades and some Eastern Europeans with post-communism shock, to justify their ideological hard shift to the right into often straight up fascism. [0] https://www.fuerthwiki.de/wiki/index.php/Rudolf_Benario https://www.fuerthwiki.de/wiki/index.php/Rudolf_Benario

jokethrowaway 6y ago
I've read extensively on the subject and I'm aware of the claims of using socialism as PR and I'm aware of the great purge. At the same time, Hitler viewed Marxism not only as a philosophy close to its own, but also as a rival. I don't think the first victims of Dachau prove anything. The only data I use to argue nazis were closer to socialism than free market capitalism is that their economy (despite having a semblance of a free economy) revolved around the state: prices, wages were fixed, members of the nazi party were put in control of private companies who disobeyed. Hitler was definitely to the right of Stalin, but he was left of most modern left wing parties. I also disagree with you that something is not open to debate, and I think it's worrying to hear people hold this view - especially on something so subjective as political categorisations. Some more reading material: https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-s... https://fee.org/articles/anti-racists-should-think-twice-about-allying-with-socialism/ https://fee.org/articles/anti-racists-should-think-twice-abo...