4 ms·

When I read stories like this I am always curious how "real" they are... surely San Francisco would fall into the ocean if everything was like this story. But..

by jppope 6y ago

When I read stories like this I am always curious how "real" they are... surely San Francisco would fall into the ocean if everything was like this story. But... when I talk to people in San Francisco it sounds like this sort of thing is somewhat normal. Any SF people want to register an opinion?

ngokevin 6y ago
Seems like in America (or the world, or capitalism in general), incumbents have a strong grasp on everything, from business to government to land. In SF, it's magnified with the amount of space being scarce. People who were there first, whether they are homeowners or business owners, and benefit from obstructing newcomers.
- parineum 6y ago
  The incumbent control is executed through regulations. Cities more friendly to regulation have this type of problem more often. I see this sort of thing attributed to capitalism all the time when, really, it's just corruption of the regulatory process. Corruption isn't a bug in capitalism, it's a trait of humans. Corruption has crippled bodies of all types, from the UN to my HOA. With zero regulation this problem wouldn't exist. The guy would rent the space and open an ice cream shop in days, if not weeks. There might be rat feces in the chocolate chip but he'd be selling it.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    Well, with zero regulation this guy would open up his shop and the other business owners would just dump trash outside of his door until he's forced to move away (or, like, worse). Regulations work both ways and even the regulation here (restricting the opening of a new business) is something that can and has benefited small business - lest we forget when Walmart aggressively forced out competitors with heavy market saturation before consolidating services into infrequent super-stores.
    - username90 6y ago
      It could take weeks instead of years to sort this out, SF just doesn't want to do it.
    - parineum 6y ago
      That's why I mentioned the rat feces. It's certainly a give and take but you can't have regulatory capture without a regulatory mechanism.
- pjlegato 6y ago
  Capitalism? Socialist countries such as Cuba and North Korea are far worse in terms of state-mandated incumbent preservation. Their economies are lifted directly out of 1950 in the best parts, and the feudal era in the worst parts.
- grecy 6y ago
  It's a huge breath of fresh air to go to other countries that are not this way and realize how much opportunity there is. I seriously thought about setting up a business in Argentina when I was there, and friends have braved Zimbabwe and are doing well. Obviously there are plenty of other pitfalls, but the barrier to entry is essentially non-existent. Coming back to Canada after spending years abroad I can't help feeling like everything here is "done" and there's no room for more.
carabiner 6y ago
This is by design from the SF preservationists. The more development they can prevent, the better. The attitude I've heard is that SF is like Yosemite and it must absolutely not be allowed to change in any way.
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  If you allow development to happen in SF, think of what will happen to the historic laundromats[1]! [1] https://missionlocal.org/2018/06/the-strange-and-terrible-saga-of-san-franciscos-historic-laundromat-represents-the-worst-of-planning-and-development-in-this-town/ https://missionlocal.org/2018/06/the-strange-and-terrible-sa...
- bombcar 6y ago
  San Francisco is one of the most conservative℠ cities in the world.
- boringg 6y ago
  To be fair there is a balance on preservation and development. Development run amok in the city is pretty bad while underinvestment also creates some strange pressures.
  - vkou 6y ago
    > Development run amok in the city is pretty bad Legitimate question: Do you have any examples of 'development running amok' ruining a city (or life for a significant part of a city's residents), that did not involve mind-blowing amounts of corruption? It may be that I just don't have a proper understanding of what development running amok would hypothetically look like, because I can't even really envision it. What would it look like?
    - carabiner 6y ago
      SF preservations say they don't want their city turning into Hong Kong. So it's not objectively "ruined," just radically different from its current state. They are essentially conservative.
ericlewis 6y ago
As an ex of SF it seems to me this person vastly underestimated just how hard or expensive setting up a new business anywhere might be, especially a food business. And in SF of all places…
munk-a 6y ago
I think there are two strong factors here: 1. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug and change is scary. 2. I got mine - time to pull up the ladder. SF is a really weird place to live where people want to keep it locked into a scenic ideal that isn't scalable to the population that wants to live and work there. There's also a weird conflux of geographic constraints coupled with a whole boatload of money. Additionally, all of the businesses established in SF have a strong motivation to keep more businesses out to protect their revenues, even if more business would contribute to a stronger economy through long term growth. I think it's fair to say that SF is slowly falling into the ocean, but there's still enough demand and money flowing in that it keeps pushing itself up periodically.
grandmczeb 6y ago
SF resident here: stuff like this is absolutely real and commonplace. If anything, stories like this actually undersell the situation since a lot of the "brokeness" isn't just due to incompetence but rather straight up corruption. DBI and Planning in particular are notorious for bribery[1], but the problem is extremely pervasive throughout the city government. [1] https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/rodrigo-santos-dbi/ https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/rodrigo-santos-dbi/
jollybean 6y ago
This is not an SF thing, it's a 'Almost Everywhere' thing, some places being worse than others. The level of systematic dysfunction, fraud, bureaucracy etc. would be shocking to many of us, even though in other areas, cities and services are actually under supported. It's a little more hypocritical with SF because the the amount of wealth and hints of virtue signalling that come out of there, but really it's a broader problem. Wealth is created by our ability to organize efficiently. This stuff should be a 'primary' concern for citizens and voters but none of it makes nice headlines. It's literally probably easier to go to Mars than it is to clean up city/state legislative and operational dysfunction. I wish there would be legit press outlets that open up specifically to focus on these things.
- neurostimulant 6y ago
  Third world countries can also has surprisingly complicated bureaucracy. But at least in a 3rd world countries you could grease some of the bureaucrats to expedite the process.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  Not everywhere. I live in a well run suburb of a well run city. Same with family, who are spread around the country. There’s plenty to complain about, especially in “other places.” But except for when I lived in Chicago and San Francisco, municipal government was fine. And that includes other parts of Illinois and California.

by jppope 6y ago

ngokevin 6y ago

Seems like in America (or the world, or capitalism in general), incumbents have a strong grasp on everything, from business to government to land. In SF, it's magnified with the amount of space being scarce. People who were there first, whether they are homeowners or business owners, and benefit from obstructing newcomers.

parineum 6y ago
The incumbent control is executed through regulations. Cities more friendly to regulation have this type of problem more often. I see this sort of thing attributed to capitalism all the time when, really, it's just corruption of the regulatory process. Corruption isn't a bug in capitalism, it's a trait of humans. Corruption has crippled bodies of all types, from the UN to my HOA. With zero regulation this problem wouldn't exist. The guy would rent the space and open an ice cream shop in days, if not weeks. There might be rat feces in the chocolate chip but he'd be selling it.
- munk-a 6y ago
  Well, with zero regulation this guy would open up his shop and the other business owners would just dump trash outside of his door until he's forced to move away (or, like, worse). Regulations work both ways and even the regulation here (restricting the opening of a new business) is something that can and has benefited small business - lest we forget when Walmart aggressively forced out competitors with heavy market saturation before consolidating services into infrequent super-stores.
  - username90 6y ago
    It could take weeks instead of years to sort this out, SF just doesn't want to do it.
  - parineum 6y ago
    That's why I mentioned the rat feces. It's certainly a give and take but you can't have regulatory capture without a regulatory mechanism.
pjlegato 6y ago
Capitalism? Socialist countries such as Cuba and North Korea are far worse in terms of state-mandated incumbent preservation. Their economies are lifted directly out of 1950 in the best parts, and the feudal era in the worst parts.
grecy 6y ago
It's a huge breath of fresh air to go to other countries that are not this way and realize how much opportunity there is. I seriously thought about setting up a business in Argentina when I was there, and friends have braved Zimbabwe and are doing well. Obviously there are plenty of other pitfalls, but the barrier to entry is essentially non-existent. Coming back to Canada after spending years abroad I can't help feeling like everything here is "done" and there's no room for more.

carabiner 6y ago

This is by design from the SF preservationists. The more development they can prevent, the better. The attitude I've heard is that SF is like Yosemite and it must absolutely not be allowed to change in any way.

cycrutchfield 6y ago
If you allow development to happen in SF, think of what will happen to the historic laundromats[1]! [1] https://missionlocal.org/2018/06/the-strange-and-terrible-saga-of-san-franciscos-historic-laundromat-represents-the-worst-of-planning-and-development-in-this-town/ https://missionlocal.org/2018/06/the-strange-and-terrible-sa...
bombcar 6y ago
San Francisco is one of the most conservative℠ cities in the world.
boringg 6y ago
To be fair there is a balance on preservation and development. Development run amok in the city is pretty bad while underinvestment also creates some strange pressures.
- vkou 6y ago
  > Development run amok in the city is pretty bad Legitimate question: Do you have any examples of 'development running amok' ruining a city (or life for a significant part of a city's residents), that did not involve mind-blowing amounts of corruption? It may be that I just don't have a proper understanding of what development running amok would hypothetically look like, because I can't even really envision it. What would it look like?
  - carabiner 6y ago
    SF preservations say they don't want their city turning into Hong Kong. So it's not objectively "ruined," just radically different from its current state. They are essentially conservative.

ericlewis 6y ago

As an ex of SF it seems to me this person vastly underestimated just how hard or expensive setting up a new business anywhere might be, especially a food business. And in SF of all places…

munk-a 6y ago

I think there are two strong factors here: 1. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug and change is scary. 2. I got mine - time to pull up the ladder. SF is a really weird place to live where people want to keep it locked into a scenic ideal that isn't scalable to the population that wants to live and work there. There's also a weird conflux of geographic constraints coupled with a whole boatload of money. Additionally, all of the businesses established in SF have a strong motivation to keep more businesses out to protect their revenues, even if more business would contribute to a stronger economy through long term growth. I think it's fair to say that SF is slowly falling into the ocean, but there's still enough demand and money flowing in that it keeps pushing itself up periodically.

grandmczeb 6y ago

SF resident here: stuff like this is absolutely real and commonplace. If anything, stories like this actually undersell the situation since a lot of the "brokeness" isn't just due to incompetence but rather straight up corruption. DBI and Planning in particular are notorious for bribery[1], but the problem is extremely pervasive throughout the city government. [1] https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/rodrigo-santos-dbi/ https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/rodrigo-santos-dbi/

jollybean 6y ago

This is not an SF thing, it's a 'Almost Everywhere' thing, some places being worse than others. The level of systematic dysfunction, fraud, bureaucracy etc. would be shocking to many of us, even though in other areas, cities and services are actually under supported. It's a little more hypocritical with SF because the the amount of wealth and hints of virtue signalling that come out of there, but really it's a broader problem. Wealth is created by our ability to organize efficiently. This stuff should be a 'primary' concern for citizens and voters but none of it makes nice headlines. It's literally probably easier to go to Mars than it is to clean up city/state legislative and operational dysfunction. I wish there would be legit press outlets that open up specifically to focus on these things.

neurostimulant 6y ago
Third world countries can also has surprisingly complicated bureaucracy. But at least in a 3rd world countries you could grease some of the bureaucrats to expedite the process.
pyuser583 6y ago
Not everywhere. I live in a well run suburb of a well run city. Same with family, who are spread around the country. There’s plenty to complain about, especially in “other places.” But except for when I lived in Chicago and San Francisco, municipal government was fine. And that includes other parts of Illinois and California.