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To follow up with that, we are exceptionally cruel through our factory farms (CAFO) which subject animals to conditions that would put you into federal jail for

by yboris 6y ago

To follow up with that, we are exceptionally cruel through our factory farms (CAFO) which subject animals to conditions that would put you into federal jail for years if you did it to a dog. I strongly encourage everyone to consume less meat (because individual actions matter - the market is responsive/elastic and fewer animals will experience torture in the future if you purchase less animal products).

bollu 6y ago
I don't believe that my individual choice actually matters; What do I read to change my opinion?
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  Any introduction to chaos theory should change your mind, but it convinces you that your actions have consequences at the cost of never being sure what they are.
- lasfter 6y ago
  I'm usually of the same mind, but this is one scenario where individual action actually can help. For example, driving less won't significantly affect climate change even if most people do it, since the biggest contributors are industrial processes. On the other hand, nearly all of the animal cruelty from factory farms stems from people buying meat from them. So if most people eat less meat, then factory farms actually will suffer.
- yboris 6y ago
  There are people who have tried to investigate this thoroughly. My understanding is that there is a direct correlation between your actions an the supply. > "If someone gives up 1 lb of chicken, total consumption falls by 0.76lb in expectation." https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/fZp6Fpowmd5a8Lu2w/what-is-the-current-best-estimate-of-the-cumulative https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/fZp6Fpowmd5a8Lu2w/... Directly: https://reducing-suffering.org/comments-on-compassion-by-the-pound/#Elasticities https://reducing-suffering.org/comments-on-compassion-by-the... The mechanism is simple: if the stores are 100% responsive to your demand, your purchase directly affects supply. If they are not 100% perfect, they still have a mechanism through which they buy in bulk. So, roughly speaking, you might have a 1% chance of triggering a batch order for an extra 100 lbs when you purchase 1 lb of meat. And the same goes up the supply chain.
- agogdog 6y ago
  Have you noticed that there's a lot more vegetarian food available and there are legitimately good meat alternatives now? This stuff didn't exist 20 years ago. The personal choices of consumers en masse has made that difference.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Maybe hang out with some cows, pigs, sheep, lambs etc for a lil while. I don't mean in a mass farm with 1000s. In a place where there are one or 2 you can get to know as individuals.
agumonkey 6y ago
We need to find a compensating activity so people don't think about eating. It can be a double win, less consumption and more social activity / bond.
OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
I'm lucky to be able to get almost all of my meat from local, pasture-only sources (no feeder lots or anything like that). There are alternatives to abstaining from meat. The more we support them, the more widely available they will become.
- yboris 6y ago
  Given that > 99% of all meat consumed in the US comes from factory farms, it is currently not feasible for the vast majority of the US population to do what you are lucky to be able to do. It's great to hear there are still farms that care about animal welfare, but it's a challenge with a race-to-the-bottom where profits are inversely proportional with animal welfare. Specifically, there is a greater incentive to make consumers think that the animals have good welfare, than to actually implement the better welfare. Unless we have mandatory web-cameras on all factories, you're just going on trust of people (who have all the immense financial incentives to lie).
  - OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
    I'm saying that if you ever have the choice to support ethical options or abstain completely, don't feel bad about supporting. I hope they continue to grow, that more people become more conscientious, and that regulations improve.
- agogdog 6y ago
  Where's that almost coming from?
jjtheblunt 6y ago
Unless you're Michael Vick, in which case the NFL gives him a high paying job, i've noticed and heard countless people remark seems conspicuous.
- jgwil2 6y ago
  He spent 21 months in federal prison.

by yboris 6y ago

bollu 6y ago

I don't believe that my individual choice actually matters; What do I read to change my opinion?

SuoDuanDao 6y ago
Any introduction to chaos theory should change your mind, but it convinces you that your actions have consequences at the cost of never being sure what they are.
lasfter 6y ago
I'm usually of the same mind, but this is one scenario where individual action actually can help. For example, driving less won't significantly affect climate change even if most people do it, since the biggest contributors are industrial processes. On the other hand, nearly all of the animal cruelty from factory farms stems from people buying meat from them. So if most people eat less meat, then factory farms actually will suffer.
yboris 6y ago
There are people who have tried to investigate this thoroughly. My understanding is that there is a direct correlation between your actions an the supply. > "If someone gives up 1 lb of chicken, total consumption falls by 0.76lb in expectation." https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/fZp6Fpowmd5a8Lu2w/what-is-the-current-best-estimate-of-the-cumulative https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/fZp6Fpowmd5a8Lu2w/... Directly: https://reducing-suffering.org/comments-on-compassion-by-the-pound/#Elasticities https://reducing-suffering.org/comments-on-compassion-by-the... The mechanism is simple: if the stores are 100% responsive to your demand, your purchase directly affects supply. If they are not 100% perfect, they still have a mechanism through which they buy in bulk. So, roughly speaking, you might have a 1% chance of triggering a batch order for an extra 100 lbs when you purchase 1 lb of meat. And the same goes up the supply chain.
agogdog 6y ago
Have you noticed that there's a lot more vegetarian food available and there are legitimately good meat alternatives now? This stuff didn't exist 20 years ago. The personal choices of consumers en masse has made that difference.
yesenadam 6y ago
Maybe hang out with some cows, pigs, sheep, lambs etc for a lil while. I don't mean in a mass farm with 1000s. In a place where there are one or 2 you can get to know as individuals.

agumonkey 6y ago

We need to find a compensating activity so people don't think about eating. It can be a double win, less consumption and more social activity / bond.

OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago

I'm lucky to be able to get almost all of my meat from local, pasture-only sources (no feeder lots or anything like that). There are alternatives to abstaining from meat. The more we support them, the more widely available they will become.

yboris 6y ago
Given that > 99% of all meat consumed in the US comes from factory farms, it is currently not feasible for the vast majority of the US population to do what you are lucky to be able to do. It's great to hear there are still farms that care about animal welfare, but it's a challenge with a race-to-the-bottom where profits are inversely proportional with animal welfare. Specifically, there is a greater incentive to make consumers think that the animals have good welfare, than to actually implement the better welfare. Unless we have mandatory web-cameras on all factories, you're just going on trust of people (who have all the immense financial incentives to lie).
- OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
  I'm saying that if you ever have the choice to support ethical options or abstain completely, don't feel bad about supporting. I hope they continue to grow, that more people become more conscientious, and that regulations improve.
agogdog 6y ago
Where's that almost coming from?

jjtheblunt 6y ago

Unless you're Michael Vick, in which case the NFL gives him a high paying job, i've noticed and heard countless people remark seems conspicuous.

jgwil2 6y ago
He spent 21 months in federal prison.