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How I am reading your comment: Higher demand will decrease prices for renewable sources, because of bitcoin mining, and such feedback eventually will lead to d

by neatze 5y ago

How I am reading your comment: Higher demand will decrease prices for renewable sources, because of bitcoin mining, and such feedback eventually will lead to decrease prices in supply of renewable sources material. I see a few false assumption, to say the least: 1. Material for renewable sources are not scares and there's production is cheap. 2. It is cheaper to mine from renewables sources then from non-renewable sources. (infrastructure cost) 3. There is no trend in replacing existing energy sources with renewables sources, without bitcoin.

billytetrud 5y ago
You are reading my comment wrong. Those false assumptions are your own. I am not claiming that higher demand for renewables will lower prices. That may be true, but it is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that bitcoin can use energy that would otherwise be wasted. On your point 2, what are you saying? That it is cheaper to mind from renewable source than non renewable? I agree so not sure why you're saying otherwise. Renewable energy often produces more unusable energy than coal. You can control how much coal you put in the fire, you can't control how much sun or wind hits your panels or wind turbines. Energy that would otherwise be wasted is cheap energy. That's my point.
- neatze 5y ago
  Fixed point 2. I am not sure I agree with this, not much energy is wasted, grid off demand prices from renewable sources might be good options for miners, but net is still negative, simple I can't see use case where miner will be I am only making money for 2 hours a day, for only few unknown amount of days a week/month.
  - billytetrud 5y ago
    > not much energy is wasted There are two situations: 1. Current solar and wind generation that wastes energy (known as "curtailment"). In Texas, about 17% of wind energy is curtailed. In California, about 25% of solar energy is curtailed. https://slate.com/business/2016/07/how-energy-waste-in-solar-and-wind-power-still-happens.html https://slate.com/business/2016/07/how-energy-waste-in-solar... https://www.caiso.com/documents/curtailmentfastfacts.pdf https://www.caiso.com/documents/curtailmentfastfacts.pdf 2. Potential renewable energy production that doesn't happen because of cost effectiveness in areas where curtailment would be high. In places that are poorly connected to agacent energy grids, curtailment might be quite a bit higher than existing production, especially if the goal is to power a larger fraction of an area's electricity with solar and wind. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine renewable power production with 50% curtailment. Another example of wasted energy is natural gas flare offs. People are starting to utilize these for bitcoin mining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeZVcGsva8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeZVcGsva8 > I can't see use case where miner will be I am only making money for 2 hours a day Well, it wouldn't be for just 2 hours a day. 25% curtailment simply mean that only 1/4th of the day has usable excess energy. It could mean 26% excess energy for 23 hours a day, or it could mean 85% excess energy for 1 hour a day. If you have a location with 25% excess energy, you could be running on excess energy for the majority of the day. Also, power storage could help a lot. There are types of power storage that do very well for short period of time, but poorly for long periods of time. So by storing some of that energy for an hour or two, you can use that energy to mine when there is 0% excess but no extra energy is needed by the grid. Electric generation isn't as simple as people think.

by neatze 5y ago

billytetrud 5y ago

You are reading my comment wrong. Those false assumptions are your own. I am not claiming that higher demand for renewables will lower prices. That may be true, but it is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that bitcoin can use energy that would otherwise be wasted. On your point 2, what are you saying? That it is cheaper to mind from renewable source than non renewable? I agree so not sure why you're saying otherwise. Renewable energy often produces more unusable energy than coal. You can control how much coal you put in the fire, you can't control how much sun or wind hits your panels or wind turbines. Energy that would otherwise be wasted is cheap energy. That's my point.

neatze 5y ago
Fixed point 2. I am not sure I agree with this, not much energy is wasted, grid off demand prices from renewable sources might be good options for miners, but net is still negative, simple I can't see use case where miner will be I am only making money for 2 hours a day, for only few unknown amount of days a week/month.
- billytetrud 5y ago
  > not much energy is wasted There are two situations: 1. Current solar and wind generation that wastes energy (known as "curtailment"). In Texas, about 17% of wind energy is curtailed. In California, about 25% of solar energy is curtailed. https://slate.com/business/2016/07/how-energy-waste-in-solar-and-wind-power-still-happens.html https://slate.com/business/2016/07/how-energy-waste-in-solar... https://www.caiso.com/documents/curtailmentfastfacts.pdf https://www.caiso.com/documents/curtailmentfastfacts.pdf 2. Potential renewable energy production that doesn't happen because of cost effectiveness in areas where curtailment would be high. In places that are poorly connected to agacent energy grids, curtailment might be quite a bit higher than existing production, especially if the goal is to power a larger fraction of an area's electricity with solar and wind. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine renewable power production with 50% curtailment. Another example of wasted energy is natural gas flare offs. People are starting to utilize these for bitcoin mining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeZVcGsva8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeZVcGsva8 > I can't see use case where miner will be I am only making money for 2 hours a day Well, it wouldn't be for just 2 hours a day. 25% curtailment simply mean that only 1/4th of the day has usable excess energy. It could mean 26% excess energy for 23 hours a day, or it could mean 85% excess energy for 1 hour a day. If you have a location with 25% excess energy, you could be running on excess energy for the majority of the day. Also, power storage could help a lot. There are types of power storage that do very well for short period of time, but poorly for long periods of time. So by storing some of that energy for an hour or two, you can use that energy to mine when there is 0% excess but no extra energy is needed by the grid. Electric generation isn't as simple as people think.