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Interesting -- "immiseration", as far as I know, originates with 19th century socialist theory regarding rising misery among the working class due to relatively

by wcarss 6y ago

Interesting -- "immiseration", as far as I know, originates with 19th century socialist theory regarding rising misery among the working class due to relatively lower wages as capitalists accumulate wealth and subjugate them[0,1]. Granted, the term is obscure and jargonesque enough that in modern use it does generally mean, specifically, "impoverishment". Which in other words could be called misery from economic causes. Please, allow at least a little breadth in the scope of rhetorical wordplay: immiseration is fundamentally about misery, and the links I gave are examples of the broad misery felt by the average American. That misery is not sourceless: my entire point is that that misery is due to the increasing relative impoverishment of the average person. On the surface it is just misery, but when you think about the causes, it is apparent that it is immiseration, in the jargon sense: the people are poorer than they have ever been, and they are visibly angrier and more upset because of it. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis 1 - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapter_25#Section_4 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapte...

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I see very little connection between the George Floyd protests and increasing relative impoverishment of the average person.
- noofen 6y ago
  Lots of young people with nothing but time on their hands?
- wcarss 6y ago
  The George Floyd protest and the Capitol Riot are each outpourings of rage, directed at "the system". One was directed at the ongoing and increasing seeming criminalization of simply being Black in America, and one was directed at what the people involved thought was an unfair and stolen election, designed to take from them what little they have. Different people, different plights, different ideas: same root cause. Happy, wealthy, comfortable, safe people who believe a bright future is in store do not take to the streets, burn buildings down, and get into large scale fights with their local police force. They don't throw bricks through coffee shop windows, hang out in tear gas clouds, or crowd up during a pandemic. Their willingness to do so, over clearly expressed feelings of hopelessness and loss of control or participation in the system, over a feeling that they are losing out overall, it's coming from a place of desperation. It is coming from a place of misery. You've got to be pretty miserable if you think fighting the cops sounds good. I'm sorry that you see very little connection there. It may unfortunately be that you see very little overall, or that you're intentionally looking away.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Ignoring your gratuitous insults in the last paragraph... > Happy, wealthy, comfortable, safe people who believe a bright future is in store do not take to the streets, burn buildings down, and get into large scale fights with their local police force. They don't throw bricks through coffee shop windows, hang out in tear gas clouds, or crowd up during a pandemic. Yeah, see, they could be wealthy, and still not safe because of skin color. That's the point of the George Floyd protests. If you see people like yourself getting shot by police for reasons that seem absurd, over and over, you don't feel safe. You don't believe in a bright future. You aren't happy. And economics has very little to do with it.
    - noofen 6y ago
      27 unarmed black men were shot by police in the US 2020. Most liberals think the number is 1,000+, and a large portion think it's 10,000+ [1]. Maybe you should factor this in to your analysis? [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/lq7kvq/a_recent_nationally_representative_survey/ https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/lq7kvq/a_recent_...
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        I tried to be careful in how I worded what I said. If I were black (I'm not), and I saw news accounts over and over about police shooting blacks for what (at first report) seemed to be trivial reasons, I would not feel safe. The number doesn't have to be statistically significant; the reasons can be better than they appeared at first report. None of that matters. What matters is that the media is beating into my head that this is going on, so I think I'm not safe. Doesn't matter whether I am or not. If I think I am unsafe, everything I said in my post follows. (Including the main point - that this isn't about economics.)
        giantg2 6y ago
        One doesn't have to be black to feel unsafe. We also have to define the term unsafe. It depends on how often the issue is occurring and what that individual's risk tolerance is.

by wcarss 6y ago

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

I see very little connection between the George Floyd protests and increasing relative impoverishment of the average person.

noofen 6y ago
Lots of young people with nothing but time on their hands?
wcarss 6y ago
The George Floyd protest and the Capitol Riot are each outpourings of rage, directed at "the system". One was directed at the ongoing and increasing seeming criminalization of simply being Black in America, and one was directed at what the people involved thought was an unfair and stolen election, designed to take from them what little they have. Different people, different plights, different ideas: same root cause. Happy, wealthy, comfortable, safe people who believe a bright future is in store do not take to the streets, burn buildings down, and get into large scale fights with their local police force. They don't throw bricks through coffee shop windows, hang out in tear gas clouds, or crowd up during a pandemic. Their willingness to do so, over clearly expressed feelings of hopelessness and loss of control or participation in the system, over a feeling that they are losing out overall, it's coming from a place of desperation. It is coming from a place of misery. You've got to be pretty miserable if you think fighting the cops sounds good. I'm sorry that you see very little connection there. It may unfortunately be that you see very little overall, or that you're intentionally looking away.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Ignoring your gratuitous insults in the last paragraph... > Happy, wealthy, comfortable, safe people who believe a bright future is in store do not take to the streets, burn buildings down, and get into large scale fights with their local police force. They don't throw bricks through coffee shop windows, hang out in tear gas clouds, or crowd up during a pandemic. Yeah, see, they could be wealthy, and still not safe because of skin color. That's the point of the George Floyd protests. If you see people like yourself getting shot by police for reasons that seem absurd, over and over, you don't feel safe. You don't believe in a bright future. You aren't happy. And economics has very little to do with it.
  - noofen 6y ago
    27 unarmed black men were shot by police in the US 2020. Most liberals think the number is 1,000+, and a large portion think it's 10,000+ [1]. Maybe you should factor this in to your analysis? [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/lq7kvq/a_recent_nationally_representative_survey/ https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/lq7kvq/a_recent_...
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      I tried to be careful in how I worded what I said. If I were black (I'm not), and I saw news accounts over and over about police shooting blacks for what (at first report) seemed to be trivial reasons, I would not feel safe. The number doesn't have to be statistically significant; the reasons can be better than they appeared at first report. None of that matters. What matters is that the media is beating into my head that this is going on, so I think I'm not safe. Doesn't matter whether I am or not. If I think I am unsafe, everything I said in my post follows. (Including the main point - that this isn't about economics.)
      - giantg2 6y ago
        One doesn't have to be black to feel unsafe. We also have to define the term unsafe. It depends on how often the issue is occurring and what that individual's risk tolerance is.