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If the numbers were really that off in the past wouldn't quality of living be much less than it is for most people in the US? I am skeptical of inflation stayin

If the numbers were really that off in the past wouldn't quality of living be much less than it is for most people in the US? I am skeptical of inflation staying low in the future, and I think they do sometimes make questionable quality adjustments in the inflation data, but if inflation was actually much greater than they've claimed you would see a gradual immiseration of the population.

danhak 6y ago
*immiseration of those who don't hold assets Which is precisely what's been happening. Just take a walk around any major urban center in the U.S. There is misery in the streets. The opioid crisis is another manifestation of the same despair. Historic civil unrest, "eat the rich" / "billionaires shouldn't exist" rhetoric heating up. Etc. etc.
- emodendroket 6y ago
  But none of those things are very recent.
  - danaris 6y ago
    It's been happening gradually over the course of the last 40-odd years.
noofen 6y ago
> if inflation was actually much greater than they've claimed you would see a gradual immiseration of the population. Have you been watching the news lately? Keep watching. Violence and deaths of despair are skyrocketing and will continue to.
- bottled_poe 6y ago
  I don’t believe that. Any data sources?
wcarss 6y ago
> you would see a gradual immiseration of the population good point, there's basically no evidence[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7] of misery across the american population. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon 5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police#Unite... 6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#Social_and_political_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#Social_and_politi... 7 - https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html
- refurb 6y ago
  Ok, try doing that in the late 90’s and see what happens.
- paulpauper 6y ago
  you can do this for any snapshop of time, it is only now that socia media makes events that decades ago would have gone ignored, major news.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  By this definition France and 1990s Seattle would be terrible places to live. The opioid epidemic is potentially a real indicator of immiseration (not the same thing as misery btw), but I don't know much about it.
  - wcarss 6y ago
    Interesting -- "immiseration", as far as I know, originates with 19th century socialist theory regarding rising misery among the working class due to relatively lower wages as capitalists accumulate wealth and subjugate them[0,1]. Granted, the term is obscure and jargonesque enough that in modern use it does generally mean, specifically, "impoverishment". Which in other words could be called misery from economic causes. Please, allow at least a little breadth in the scope of rhetorical wordplay: immiseration is fundamentally about misery, and the links I gave are examples of the broad misery felt by the average American. That misery is not sourceless: my entire point is that that misery is due to the increasing relative impoverishment of the average person. On the surface it is just misery, but when you think about the causes, it is apparent that it is immiseration, in the jargon sense: the people are poorer than they have ever been, and they are visibly angrier and more upset because of it. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis 1 - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapter_25#Section_4 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapte...
thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
> If the numbers were really that off in the past wouldn't quality of living be much less than it is for most people in the US? Yes. Absolutely. I saw an interview of someone who talked about living in the 60s. He was saying how a painter could own a home, afford a wife and six kids with no problem without the wife even working a 2nd job. Today, a single painter could barely afford himself, let alone a family of six and a house. I know it's anecdotle, but the difference is so vast and stark, I think it's obvious there's been a huge difference in quality of life over the last 60 years.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  I understand this argument, and I am somewhat in agreement with it. But here's where I'm skeptical. Where I live, there are some homes from this time period. They are very small, around ~1000sq ft. Maybe slightly bigger. Now people want much larger homes. They tend to have at least two cars and possibly more if they have kids. They go out to eat much more frequently and spend a lot more on entertainment. Obviously, some of that you can't avoid. No one is making 1000 sq ft brick homes anymore for new homeowners, so you don't have an option of a small, cheap home in many areas. You only have the option of the bigger, more expensive home. But some of it is a personal choice. I think there is something to the argument you're making, but I also think people are underestimating the frugality of people in the past.
  - kec 6y ago
    You're getting cause and effect backwards. New construction small homes don't exist because they aren't as profitable for developers to build not because there isn't demand for them. I can guarantee you there are effectively zero millennials living with their parents or with roommates in a small apartment who would turn down the chance to own an affordable small home.
    - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
      I'm not getting cause and effect backwards. I just said no one is making those homes. I realize people would buy them if they were available.

danhak 6y ago

*immiseration of those who don't hold assets Which is precisely what's been happening. Just take a walk around any major urban center in the U.S. There is misery in the streets. The opioid crisis is another manifestation of the same despair. Historic civil unrest, "eat the rich" / "billionaires shouldn't exist" rhetoric heating up. Etc. etc.

emodendroket 6y ago
But none of those things are very recent.
- danaris 6y ago
  It's been happening gradually over the course of the last 40-odd years.

noofen 6y ago

> if inflation was actually much greater than they've claimed you would see a gradual immiseration of the population. Have you been watching the news lately? Keep watching. Violence and deaths of despair are skyrocketing and will continue to.

bottled_poe 6y ago
I don’t believe that. Any data sources?

wcarss 6y ago

> you would see a gradual immiseration of the population good point, there's basically no evidence[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7] of misery across the american population. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_St... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon 5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police#Unite... 6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#Social_and_political_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#Social_and_politi... 7 - https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html

refurb 6y ago
Ok, try doing that in the late 90’s and see what happens.
paulpauper 6y ago
you can do this for any snapshop of time, it is only now that socia media makes events that decades ago would have gone ignored, major news.
jeffreyrogers 6y ago
By this definition France and 1990s Seattle would be terrible places to live. The opioid epidemic is potentially a real indicator of immiseration (not the same thing as misery btw), but I don't know much about it.
- wcarss 6y ago
  Interesting -- "immiseration", as far as I know, originates with 19th century socialist theory regarding rising misery among the working class due to relatively lower wages as capitalists accumulate wealth and subjugate them[0,1]. Granted, the term is obscure and jargonesque enough that in modern use it does generally mean, specifically, "impoverishment". Which in other words could be called misery from economic causes. Please, allow at least a little breadth in the scope of rhetorical wordplay: immiseration is fundamentally about misery, and the links I gave are examples of the broad misery felt by the average American. That misery is not sourceless: my entire point is that that misery is due to the increasing relative impoverishment of the average person. On the surface it is just misery, but when you think about the causes, it is apparent that it is immiseration, in the jargon sense: the people are poorer than they have ever been, and they are visibly angrier and more upset because of it. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immiseration_thesis 1 - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapter_25#Section_4 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital_Volume_One/Chapte...

thorwasdfasdf 6y ago

> If the numbers were really that off in the past wouldn't quality of living be much less than it is for most people in the US? Yes. Absolutely. I saw an interview of someone who talked about living in the 60s. He was saying how a painter could own a home, afford a wife and six kids with no problem without the wife even working a 2nd job. Today, a single painter could barely afford himself, let alone a family of six and a house. I know it's anecdotle, but the difference is so vast and stark, I think it's obvious there's been a huge difference in quality of life over the last 60 years.

jeffreyrogers 6y ago
I understand this argument, and I am somewhat in agreement with it. But here's where I'm skeptical. Where I live, there are some homes from this time period. They are very small, around ~1000sq ft. Maybe slightly bigger. Now people want much larger homes. They tend to have at least two cars and possibly more if they have kids. They go out to eat much more frequently and spend a lot more on entertainment. Obviously, some of that you can't avoid. No one is making 1000 sq ft brick homes anymore for new homeowners, so you don't have an option of a small, cheap home in many areas. You only have the option of the bigger, more expensive home. But some of it is a personal choice. I think there is something to the argument you're making, but I also think people are underestimating the frugality of people in the past.
- kec 6y ago
  You're getting cause and effect backwards. New construction small homes don't exist because they aren't as profitable for developers to build not because there isn't demand for them. I can guarantee you there are effectively zero millennials living with their parents or with roommates in a small apartment who would turn down the chance to own an affordable small home.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    I'm not getting cause and effect backwards. I just said no one is making those homes. I realize people would buy them if they were available.