4 ms·

Glad to see all the innovation happening in the IaC space. I like the multi-language premise of Pulumi but I have the feeling that over time one of the languag

• joeduffy 5y ago
  Excellent topic. [caveat, Pulumi co-founder here] Indeed what you say is true of many other "multi-language" platforms. I was an early engineer on .NET at Microsoft, and although it was multi-language from the outset (COBAL.NET was a thing!), the reality is most folks write in C# these days. And yet, you still see a lot of excitement for PowerShell, Visual Basic, and F#, each of which has a rich community, but uses that same common core. A similar phenomenon has happened in the JVM ecosystem with Java dominating most usage until the late 2000s, at which point my impression is that Groovy, Scala, and now Kotlin won significant mindshare. I have reasons to be optimistic the infrastructure language domain will play out similarly. Especially as we are fundamentally serving multiple audiences -- we see that infrastructure teams often elect Python, while developers often go with TypeScript or Go, because they are more familiar with it. For those scenarios, the new multi-language package support is essential, since many companies have both sorts of engineers working together. A "default language for IaC" may emerge with time, but I suspect that is more likely to be Python than, say, HCL. (And even then, I'm not so sure it will happen.) One of the things I'm ridiculously excited about, by the way, is bringing IaC to new audiences -- many folks learn Python at school, not so much for other infrastructure languages. Again, I'm biased. But, even if a default emerges, I guarantee there will be reasons for the others to exist. I for one am a big functional language fan and especially for simple serverless apps, I love seeing that written in F#. And we've had a ton of interest in PowerShell support since many folks working with infrastructure for the Microsoft stack know it. And Ruby due to the Chef and Puppet journeys. I also won't discount the idea of us introducing a cloud infrastructure-specific language ;-). But it would be more general purpose than not. I worked a lot on parallel computing in the mid-2000s and that temptation was always there, but I'm glad we resisted it and instead just added tasks/promises and await to existing languages. As to the Pulumi schema, you're right, that's a step we aim to remove soon. For TypeScript, we'll generate it off the d.ts files; for Go we'll use struct tags; and so on. Now that the basic runtime is in place, we are now going to focus there. This issue tracks it: https://github.com/pulumi/pulumi/issues/6804 https://github.com/pulumi/pulumi/issues/6804. Our goal is to make this as ridiculously easy as just writing a type/class in your language of choice.
  • mtalantikite 5y ago
    > There might be "a default language" but I suspect that is more likely to be Python than, say, HCL. One of the things I'm ridiculously excited about is bringing IaC to new audiences -- many folks learn Python at school, not so much for other infrastructure languages. As someone that has worked largely on backend systems and infra for a long time, are colleges actually training these infra skills? Some app engineers at a place I consult for was just having this conversation last week, interested in how to train infra skills and pretty much everyone had sort of fallen into infra roles over their careers, with no formal training in it. Most of us were just *nix hackers as kids, learned to program at some point, and now we’re here. Working on infra is quite a lot more than just knowing the language. I’m not mad at having something other than HCL — years ago when I worked at Engine Yard we developed a cross platform cloud library that let us write things in Ruby which was nice. But when thinking of solving infra problems I’ve never once thought “you know, if I could just write this in Python these problems would go away”. Actually I personally hate Python as a language, I’d much prefer to write Go or Rust or TypeScript, and it does feel like a bonus that everyone touching infra sort of just has to use HCL which removes a lot of bike shedding. Totally open to improvements! More isn’t always better though.
    • bovermyer 5y ago
      My dad's a university professor. He's currently building a program that teaches AWS specifically and infra in general.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• JimDabell 5y ago
  When I first started using Pulumi, I was using Python and it seemed like the Pulumi team focused on JavaScript and the rest of the languages were afterthoughts. But they’ve improved a lot on this front, so if anything the trend is in the opposite direction.
• neopointer 5y ago
  I couldn't agree more. In my company we've decided that everyone will use Typescript with Pulumi because we believe that the developer experience (IDE, code autocompletion, etc) will be the best + it's a language that arguably is more used here as frontenders will know it too + providing examples, etc.