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As a high school teacher, one of the critical problems we have when arguing for higher pay is that there are no strong methods for quantifying teacher effective

As a high school teacher, one of the critical problems we have when arguing for higher pay is that there are no strong methods for quantifying teacher effectiveness. There have been attempts to develop such a tool (Gates poured a bunch of money into it), but nothing meaningful has been developed. Without that, we fall back on more qualitative, holistic methods they are both game-able and subjective. We may see a general cultural shift towards higher teacher pay (which I believe would be positive if paired with higher professional standards), but it’s difficult to argue in our current culture that teachers “deserve” more pay when we can’t even reliably determine which teachers are having an above average educational impact.

anonporridge 6y ago
It seems like as intractable a problem as trying to identify an objective measure for a human being's success in life.
pdonis 6y ago
> there are no strong methods for quantifying teacher effectiveness There is one: a free market. Private schools don't have the luxury of doing studies forever; if their teaching is not effective, they go out of business. The ones who stay in business have a direct, quantitative measure of the effectiveness of their teachers: profit.
- germinalphrase 6y ago
  “Parents believing the teachers are effective” is a measure of effectiveness, but I wouldn’t consider it a particularly rigorous one.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > I wouldn’t consider it a particularly rigorous one. Parents don't have to "believe" teachers are effective; they can see the results for themselves and judge them. My parents had no problem telling which of my teachers were actually teaching me things and which were just boring me to death in class. As for "rigorous", the whole point of the comment I responded to was that there are no "rigorous" third-party measures of teacher effectiveness. That's the "problem" that all these experts have been struggling unsuccessfully to solve for decades. The reason they can't solve it is that as they have conceived the "problem", it's not solvable. The people in a position to judge the effectiveness of teachers are the people who directly observe the impact of their teaching. Third-party "experts" can't do that.
    - sofixa 6y ago
      > My parents had no problem telling which of my teachers were actually teaching me things and which were just boring me to death in class Not all parents are that involved, and a kid being bored in class isn't necessarily the teacher's fault.
      - pdonis 6y ago
        > Not all parents are that involved Then that's the root problem that needs to be fixed, and trying to invent ways for third party "experts" to "measure teacher effectiveness" won't help. > a kid being bored in class isn't necessarily the teacher's fault It might not be that individual teacher's fault, true; the kid might just be in the wrong class. But it still means there's a teaching problem.

anonporridge 6y ago

It seems like as intractable a problem as trying to identify an objective measure for a human being's success in life.

pdonis 6y ago

> there are no strong methods for quantifying teacher effectiveness There is one: a free market. Private schools don't have the luxury of doing studies forever; if their teaching is not effective, they go out of business. The ones who stay in business have a direct, quantitative measure of the effectiveness of their teachers: profit.

germinalphrase 6y ago
“Parents believing the teachers are effective” is a measure of effectiveness, but I wouldn’t consider it a particularly rigorous one.
- pdonis 6y ago
  > I wouldn’t consider it a particularly rigorous one. Parents don't have to "believe" teachers are effective; they can see the results for themselves and judge them. My parents had no problem telling which of my teachers were actually teaching me things and which were just boring me to death in class. As for "rigorous", the whole point of the comment I responded to was that there are no "rigorous" third-party measures of teacher effectiveness. That's the "problem" that all these experts have been struggling unsuccessfully to solve for decades. The reason they can't solve it is that as they have conceived the "problem", it's not solvable. The people in a position to judge the effectiveness of teachers are the people who directly observe the impact of their teaching. Third-party "experts" can't do that.
  - sofixa 6y ago
    > My parents had no problem telling which of my teachers were actually teaching me things and which were just boring me to death in class Not all parents are that involved, and a kid being bored in class isn't necessarily the teacher's fault.
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > Not all parents are that involved Then that's the root problem that needs to be fixed, and trying to invent ways for third party "experts" to "measure teacher effectiveness" won't help. > a kid being bored in class isn't necessarily the teacher's fault It might not be that individual teacher's fault, true; the kid might just be in the wrong class. But it still means there's a teaching problem.